O'Brien Siblings, their origin location in Ireland

Tom:

O'Brien/Brien was a very common surname in Ireland in the 19th century. The surname was found in all counties but primarily in the southwest and over to Co. Waterford in the southeast. You appear not to have any info on the names of the parents of the four children listed which will make it very difficult to determine where your family was from. Can you get a death record for the youngest, John Porter?

DNA testing is probably a good idea but I would not take the Y-test which would track your pure paternal line. From experience, the Y-test tends to go back more than 200 years with the matches provided.

I would recommend a general DNA test which will focus on all of your lines and provide matches with close and distant cousins. A match with someone in Australia, for example, might give you clues on which county and possibly the parish that your family came from.

Roger McDonnell

John,

Thank you very much for your suggestions. 

I have death records for each of the oldest siblings. John Porter is my direct GGrandfather had a bit of a drinking problem. His wife requested that he leave she and the three children about 1891. At that point he went to live with his older brother Thomas. He resided there for less than a year before moving on.

On 10 April 1893 - The will of his brother Charles lists that John P. was thought to be in California. That is scratched out and the phrase "whereabouts unknown" was inserted instead.

On December 1906 - The obituary for Mary Smith O'Brien, John's wife, stated "Chicago newspapers please copy".

John's daughter Nell was committed to an institution.  She escaped along by tying bed sheets together and lowering herself down from an upper floor window. Nell ran off, and is thought to have gone to the Chicago area although no one in the family has been able to locate her there. This all happened about 1923-1925.

When John's son William died in July 1938, no mention of his father was noted in the obituary or death record.

I have taken the Big Y (700) test at FTDNA. The match results show my closest matches are at 111, 500 & 700.

They are all either 5 or 6 steps removed.

I have autosomal results at MyHeritage, Ancestry, FTDNA, Living DNA, Gedmatch and Geneanet.

I've built  a spreadsheet listing all matches in cM order and then identify which ancestral line they belong with. John O'Brien's wife was a Smith and she had eleven half siblings. Her father had 6 siblings. One of them had six children and another had eight children. Thus many Smith descendants. 

I'm reasonably certain that I know most if not all of John Porters descendants as they have been easier than the Smiths to determine.

I subscribe to John Grenham and have used his tool that allows us to determine in which county, parish and possibly townland two surnames both existed in Griffiths. I have matched the O'Brien name with all of the surnames that were on baptismal records of John's three children. Came up empty when I research the results in Griffiths. Grenham also provides good information regarding the heaviest concentrations of the O'Brien surname by county. If I were to take a wild guess as to the location I'd guess Galway. Don't ask me why. Perhaps John Porter is suggesting that to me. I suspect his middle name may have been passed down from his maternal line.

Roger, I really appreciate your help and suggestions. Sometimes we can lose focus.  You can imagine the amount of effort and expense that I've put into this search in the past 40 years.

My own father's paternal and maternal lines all originate in Ireland.

Tom O'Brien
1441 s. Ivy St., Unit 1104
Canby, OR 97013
Phone 503-266-4144
tom.obrien4@comcast.net

Researching in Ireland for:
BUNNEY, BURNS, DANAHEY, DOYLE, DUNN, FLYNN, GOGGIN, HURLEY, MATTHEWS, McHUGH, McKENNA, McMURRAY, MEHAN, O'BRIEN, O'CONNOR, O'DONNELL, ROCHE, SHANNON, SMITH, TAYLOR and WALSH.

Attached Files

Hello Tom,

After reading your reply of August 10 to Roger McDonnell, I too thought that John O’Brien’s middle name of Porter may have been passed down from his maternal line of the family.

This prompted me to look for the Irish baptisms of any children whose father’s last name was O’Brien (or the alternate spelling Brien), and whose mother’s maiden name was Porter.

To do this I first looked for baptism transcriptions at the Find My Past (FMP) website’s collection of Catholic parish registers. Find My Past is a subscription website, but does have some free collections, such as Catholic parish registers for the 19th century. Some registers of baptisms and marriages are also available back to the 18th century, and some to the early 20th century.

I looked for the O’Brien and Porter baptisms in all 32 counties of Ireland from the 1820s to the 1850s, and was surprised to uncover a total of 7 baptisms for the children of Daniel “Brien” and Jane Porter. All the baptisms took place in County Tipperary North Catholic parishes, though as you’ll see in a bit, one Catholic parishes slips into portions of Kings Couty (present day County Offaly), and another Catholic parish into Queens County, which is present day County Laois.

None of the baptisms include children named Charles, or Ann. Two of the baptisms are for a John Brien, and one for a Thomas Brien.

There are two baptisms for a John Brien because one would have died in infancy or perhaps early childhood.

Below are the names of these children, the years of baptism, and the Catholic parish where each baptism took place, as discovered at the FMP website:

John Brien, between 1825 and 1829, Catholic Parish of Borrisokane
Thomas Brien, 1830, Catholic Parish of Borrisokane
Bridget Brien, 1835, Catholic Parish of Roscrea
Jane “Ryan,” 1844, Catholic Parish of Moyne and Templtuohy
John Brien, 1847, Catholic Parish of Moyne and Templtuohy
Robert Brien, 1849, Catholic Parish of Moyne and Templtuohy
Daniel Brien, 1850, Catholic Parish of Roscrea
----

Jane’s last name of Ryan was either recorded by the FMP transcriber as “Ryan” because of the handwriting in a copy of the original Moyne and Templtuohy Catholic baptism register, or it was an error recorded by the priest who recorded Jane’s baptism in the register. Looking at a copy of the original baptism entry for Jane should resolve the issue. More on this later.

If this is your ancestral line, the baptisms of Charles Matthew and Ann Brien may have taken place sometime between 1830 and 1835 when Bridget was born, or between 1835 and 1847 when John was born.

In addition, the birth years of the four O’Briens who left Ireland for America, may not be accurate in U.S. census and death records, as is often the case. The years of birth for my immigrant ancestors in census and death records are all inaccurate, as I later found out when I discovered their baptism records in Ireland.

But, the baptisms of the children of Daniel Brien and Jane Porter are only circumstantial evidence, rather than direct evidence, that Daniel and Jane Brien are in your direct line. It’s circumstantial evidence because to date U.S. records have not provided the names of the parents of the four O’Brien siblings who emigrated to the U.S., Thomas, Charles, Ann, and John Porter.

Perhaps in the future you will be able to make a connection between the O’Briens who left Ireland for America, and the Briens who were the children of Daniel and Jane Porter Brien

THE BAPTISM OF JOHN BRIEN

In this FMP transcription the first name of John’s father is abbreviated as “Dl.” You’ll be able to access the baptism transcription for John by clicking on the link below. You’ll first be asked to register with FMP before the transcription downloads: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4286334

The transcription includes a link that takes you to the Borrisokane Catholic Parish registers held by the National Library of Ireland. You won’t have to access the register however, as I’ve attached the entry for John’s baptism to this reply.

John’s baptism shows that his godfather was James Walsh. The name of John’s godmother looks like it could be Mary Hacket.

Just below Mary’s name you’ll see the notation, “B okane,” which is the abbreviation used by the priest for Borrisokane. This means at the time of the baptism John and his family were living in Borrisokane, County Tipperary.

In going backward and forward in the Borrisokane baptism registers at the National Library of Ireland website, I determined that John was probably baptized between 1825 and 1829. The month and day of his baptism appears to be 21 July. This means that this John Brien would have been the first-born son the parents named John. The second son named John was baptized in 1847, as noted earlier.

THE BAPTISM OF THOMAS BRIEN

Thomas was baptized in the Borrisokane Catholic Parish on 20 May 1830. FMP transcribes his mother’s maiden name as “Porteus.” Porteus, I believe, would be the Latin spelling for Porter, as many priests during this time period spelled names in the Latin. See the transcription:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4286404

A copy of Thomas’s original baptism, attached to this reply, shows the FMP transcriber made an error with Thomas’s birth month. Thomas was actually baptized on 20 July 1830. He is the number 2 child under the July subheading. Just to the left of Thomas’s name you’ll see the notation, “20 “Ult.” This means the “20th ultimate,” or the 20th day of July.

Thomas’s godfather is John White. The first name of Thomas’s godmother is Bridget. I couldn’t tell what her last name was with any certainty. The baptism record also shows the Brien family were living in “Bok,” again short for Borrisokane.

THE BAPTISM OF BRIDGET BRIEN

Bridget was baptized in the Roscrea Catholic Parish on 3 February 1835. This FMP transcription spells the last name of her mother Janes as, “Portis.” See the transcription at the following link:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6968032

A copy of Bridget’s original baptism record does not show a godfather. Her godmother is Mary Callahan. See the attachment.

THE BAPTISM OF JANE “RYAN”

Jane was baptized in the Moyne and Templetoohy (also spelled Templetouhy, Templetuohy, and Templetoohy) Catholic Parish on 21 July 1844. The spelling of her mother Jane’s maiden name in the FMP transcription is “Portue.” The transcription also shows that at the time of the baptism Jane and her family were living in Templetoohy. See: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0144800

A copy of the original baptism record for Jane actually does show that her last name is “Ryan.” This would be an error on the part of the priest who recorded the baptism. I’ve seen many errors like this over the years in Catholic baptism records. For example, I’ve seen baptisms where the priest recorded the godmother as the mother of the child, and the mother of the child as the godmother.

Jane’s godparents are Martin Fogarty and Catherine Reily. To the right of Catherine Reily’s name is the name of the town where Jane and her family were living. This is Templetuohy, though I couldn’t see the full spelling of the town, as a portion of the name of the town extends into the fold where the spine of the register is located.

THE BAPTISM OF JOHN BRIEN

John was baptized in the Moyne and Templetuohy Catholic Parish on 3 January 1847. The transcription shows that at the time of the baptism the family were living in “Templetuoh,” and that the mother Jane’s maiden name is “Portes.” See the FMP transcription: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0145252

In the attached copy of the original baptism record for John, I couldn’t make out the first name of his godfather. His last name looks like “Croney,” but I could be wrong about that. The first name of the Godmother is Mary, but I couldn’t tell what her last name was. The name of the town where the Brien family were living, again extends into the fold of the baptism register.

THE BAPTISM OF ROBERT BRIEN

Robbert was baptized in the Moyne and Templetuohy Catholic Parish on 27 May 1849. See the FMP transcription:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0145557

The FMP transcription gives Jane’s maiden name as Porter, but a copy of the original baptism record spells he name in the Latin as “Portis.”

Robert’s godmother is Bridget Grady in the copy of the original baptism record, attached to this reply. A godfather is not recorded.

THE BAPTISM OF DANIEL BRIEN

In the 30 July 1850 FMP baptism for Daniel, his mother’s maiden name is transcribed as “Portose.” The baptism took place in the Roscrea Catholic Parish: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6326269

The attached copy of Daniel’s baptism record shows that his godfather is Patk Nesbitt and his godmother Margt Slattery. To the right of Patrick Nesbitt’s name is the residence of the Brien family at the time of the baptism. The residence is “Rosemary,” which refers to Rosemary Street in Roscrea.

An Ordnance Survey Map in color from the 1829 to 1841 time period, attached to this reply, shows the location of Rosemary Street in Roscrea. It is in the center of the map running north to south. Rosemary Street is located just north of the Tack Mill and the R.C. Chapel, in the bottom center of the map. It’s in this R.C. Chapel were Daniel was baptized in 1850. The map is from the GeoHive website.

The following link will take you to a Google map of Roscrea, showing that Rosemary Street still exists in the town: https://tinyurl.com/4xzjfkbt

Here is a Google Street View of Rosemary Street: https://tinyurl.com/yc6e4pzm

The baptism records for the first-born John Brien and Thomas Brien, shows the family were living in Borrisokane.

Attached is an Ordnance Survey Map of Borrisokane, also from the 1829 to 1841 time period, and also from the GeoHive website.

The R.C. Chapel in the northeast section of town is where John and Thomas would have been baptized.

The baptisms for Jane “Ryan,” the second-born John Brien, and Robert Brien show the family living in Templtuohy. Attached is an Ordnance Survey Map of Templetuohy showing the location of the R.C. Chapel just south of town where Jane, John, and Robert would have been baptized.

This Google Map shows that Borrisokane, just east of Lough Derg and the County Galway border, is 32.1 miles northwest of Templtuohy, traveling through Roscrea: https://tinyurl.com/3w3xx459

I am wondering if perhaps Daniel Brien may have been a tailor who traveled to the three towns in North Tipperary for his work. If he is John Porter’s father, John may have learned the tailor’s trade from him.

I also looked for the FMP church marriage transcription for Daniel Brien and Jane Porter, but didn’t find it.

In going through the baptisms for the seven Brien children, you’ll notice that three of the children, John (1847); Robert (1849); and Daniel (1850); were born during the Great Famine, known in the Irish language as “an Gorta Mór.” The famine lasted from 1845 to 1852, with the worst year being 1847, known as “Black 47.”

From 1845 to 1852 it is estimated that 1 million people died of starvation and disease and over 1 million left Ireland to look for better lives in countries such as England, the U.S., Canada, and Australia.

For more information about the Irish Famine see the Wikipedia article at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29

Also see Ireland Reaching Out: “The Great Irish Famine Online” at:
https://www.irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/news/great-irish-famine-online

Just to recap Tom, the baptism records noted above are not evidence that Daniel and Jane Porter Brien are in your direct ancestral line. But there is the possibility they are, as the Porter surname in Ireland was not widespread like the O’Brien/Brien surname was in 19th century.

For example, the Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation, from the free Ask About Ireland website, does not show any occupiers named Porter recorded in North Tipperary.

In your research over the years have you come across any information, not necessarily from John Grenham’s website, showing that your O’Briens may have been from either Borrisokane, Roscrea, or Templetuohy in County Tipperary, or from County Tipperary itself?

With Kind Regards,

Dave Boylan

Sources

Find My Past
National Library of Ireland
GeoHive: Ordnance Survey Maps
Google Maps
Google Street Views
Wikipedia
Ireland Reaching Out: The Great Irish Famine Online

Dave:

Great work!

Roger

Dave and Roger

Thank you to both of you for all of the effort you have put forth in assisting me with this challenge.

I greatly appreciate what you have done.

A new twist has recently come about. An individual by the name of Mike, whom I have known for about 25 years, reached out to me. We have both been very involved members of a local Irish Genealogy Interest group here in the Portland, Oregon area.

As mentioned earlier I have done DNA testing at multiple DNA sites. At MyHeritage I've taken there test as well uploading my results from Ancestry.com. I also manage four other tests taken at MyHeritage by my four sisters.

When Mike and I spoke he told me that he evidently had a DNA match with one of my sisters. I looked at each of the six tests and sure enough found that they match at a 34.1 cM level. Mike also matches with one of my other sisters at 13.2 cM level. There is no match on the other four kits.

Mike's surname is DALTON. I've put together a spreadsheet listing all six kits and where each has a common ancestor with Mike or someone in his tree. In total across the six kits, the list contains 67 individuals with whom Mike and I or my siblings match.

Dave and Roger, If it is alright with you, I'd like to get back to you after I've had a chance to talk further with Mike Dalton to see if we might be able to narrow down an area a little better. I know that many of his ancestors came from West Kerry in area around the Civil Parish of Ballyheige.

Tom

You're welcome Roger and Tom.

Tom, in your research, do you know if any of the four siblings who came to America had children named Daniel or Jane?

Best Regards,

Dave

Attached Files

Dave, 

Only Ann O'Brien (Crellin) had children of her own.

Son James Hubert Crellin, 1864 - 1946. He was married but they had no children.

Daughter Lillian Inez Crellin (Jackson) had one son, Stanley Crellin Jackson, 1897 - 1938. 

Inez was born in Iowa and married James William Jackson in 1896 in Colorado. Inez was 26 years younger than her husband but he had plenty of money and 10 children from his first wife that needed to be cared for. A young wife was his answer.

Their son, Stanley Crellin Jackson married in 1928. There are no children shown in the 1930 or 1940 census so evidently he had no children.

Thomas married a widow when he was about age 43.

Charles had two adopted daughters.

The O'Brien line died out at this point other than the the three children of John Porter.

I am attaching the document showing the O'Brien who share DNA with Mike Dalton. Many Irish names and Mike has visited with some of his Irish relatives in Kerry.

Tom

 

Attached Files

Hi Tom,

Thank you for the additional information, though I have to admit I’m not familiar with DNA testing or test results at all, as I’ve never took a DNA test for genealogical purposes.

In your reply of 16 August 2023, you had mentioned Mike Dalton and the Ballyheige Civil Parish in County Kerry. I wanted to see if any O’Briens and Daltons were recorded in the Ballyheige Civil Parish in an Irish property tax record known as Griffiths Valuation. The valuation for townlands located the Civil Parish of Ballyheige was published in 1851.

Griffiths Valuation and valuation maps can be accessed for free at the Ask About Ireland website.

I only found one O’Brien. This is for John O’Brien who leased property in the townland of Ballyheige. His lease was at map reference number 1k. See the attachment.

Griffiths Valuation shows that John O’Brien leased a house, office, and garden from the Reps of Pierce Crosby, Esquire. The term “Reps of” refers to the representatives of Pierce Crosby, which means Pierce Crosby was deceased and that his affairs were being handled by a family member or an executor.

John O’Brien leased 25 Perches of land for his garden. The 25 Perches was valued at 1 Shilling. His house and office were valued at 10 Shillings. The total valuation for his lease was 11 Shillings. However, he would not have been required to pay a tax on the property, as the owners of leaseholds valued under 5 Pounds were required to pay the tax, in this case, the Reps of Pierce Crosby, Esquire.

That John O’Brien did not lease one or more acres of land, may be an indication that he was not a farmer, but may have been in one of the trades or in a profession of some type.

An “Office” in Griffiths Valuation could refer to a barn, stable, blacksmith shop, piggery, etc.

There may have been other O’Briens living in Ballyheige at this time, but only those who paid to lease property were enumerated in Griffiths Valuation, though there was an exception to this, which I can go into in a follow up reply if you’d like.

Along with the Griffiths Valuation attachment is also an attachment of a Griffiths Valuation Map of Ballyheige showing the way it looked when John O’Brien had lived there.

As mentioned above, Griffiths Valuation shows that John O’Brien’s property was located at map reference 1k in Ballyheige. Attached is a magnified view of Ballyheige showing the location John O’Brien’s lease at map reference 1k, southwest of Ballyheige Castle.

Griffiths Valuation also shows Daltons leasing property in the Civil Parish of Ballyheige, but not in Ballyheige Town itself.

For example, a Patrick Dalton leased property in the townland of Ballinclemesig.

A Patrick Dalton is recorded six more time in Griffiths Valuation leasing property in the townland of Ballyronan.

A Richard Dalton leased property in the townland of Glenderry, and a John Dalton leased property in the townland of Tiershanaghan.

The Patrick Dalton who leased property in Ballinclemesig and Ballyronan, may have actually been the same individual.

Griffiths Valuation does show the O’Brien and Dalton names in a single area of County Kerry, namely the Civil Parish of Ballyheige. In some records this parish and townland are spelled “Ballyheigue.”

A Google Map shows the proximity between the townlands of Ballyheigue, Ballyronan, Ballyclemesig, Glenderry, and Tiershanaghan in the Civil Parish of Ballyheige: https://tinyurl.com/5653rrzk

Again, thank you for your response Tom.

Dave

SOURCES

Ask About Ireland: Griffiths Valuation
Ask About Ireland: Griffiths Valuation Maps
Google Map