Thompson Family

William’s death certificate shows he was living in the townland of Tullybrick when he died:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1913/05337/4485896.pdf

Same household in 1911 in Tullybrick (Hamilton):

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Middletown/Tullybrickhamilton/331061/

If you look closely at the household return in that census, it appears William had just 1 child who was still alive in 1911. (Information later deleted as it wasn’t required from widowers/widows). William was born in Co Armagh and sister Eliza in Co Monaghan (not unusual with labouring families that moved about a bit to follow the available work).

Possible death for Ellen in 1895:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1895/05944/4688531.pdf

The Adams family tree on Ancestry (owner David Thompson) records that William had a brother George 1833 – 1908, a sister Eliza 1834 – 1925,  sister Mary 1849 – 1903 and a brother John 1826 - 1883. Their father was reportedly George 1807 – 1875. (Can’t find a death that matches that though. There is a death for a George on 13.10.1875 – the date on the tree – but he was bachelor so the death information looks suspect). Can’t find deaths in Ireland for John or George junior either so that information needs verification with the tree owner.

This may be William and his sister in 1901, in Unshog townland, where both were being a bit economical about their ages (not unusual) and she is now born in Co. Armagh:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Middletown/Unshof/1019594/

GRONI has a likely death for Eliza Thompson on 1^st May 1925 aged 91, registered in Armagh.

Possibly Mary in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Middletown/Cava…

Thank you, Elwyn, for the information you have researched regarding William and his relatives. We are reasonably confident that these details pertain to our ancestor William Thompson. At this point, all our efforts to discover more about his family history have proved fruitless. We have not been able to verify his actual date of birth, or that of his two documented sister’s, let alone birth or death information for his documented Father, George Thompson - who is recorded only in William’s marriage certificate. We also understand that his his purported brother’s, George and John, are likely DNA estimated siblings, based on Ancestry DNA tree matches. Unfortunately, all our efforts to to secure any documented family information earlier than his marriage to Ellen Hughes in 1857 have not been successful. This has been especially vexing in the case of his sister, Mary, who was born in 1849, less than ten years earlier! We have also attempted to discover the location of her place of residence, at the address given in the 1901 census as house 9 Cavandoogan. We suspect her property was close to the old National School, and Ashfort House where, according to her death certificate, she actually died - and where her siblings William and Eliza resided and worked. However, we have found it impossible to locate where this property might actually be found in the maps and Griffiths Valuation books of that era.

Again, thank you for the documentation you have researched in this case.

The numbering system in the Irish censuses was generally the enumerator’s own private system and bore no relation to anything in Griffiths Valuation. It also varied from census to census as usually it was a different person doing the enumeration work. The Valuation Revision records on the PRONI site show who was listed in Cavangrow, plot by plot around 1901. Unfortunately I see no sign of Mary Thompson in them. Her death certificate in 1903 describes her as a “small farmer” which normally meant she had something like 2 or 3 acres, but she isn’t in the revaluation records.

You can tell from the 1901 census that her landlord was Thomas Burke and I see the Burke family had quite a bit of property in that townland. Mary’s house was 3 bedroomed, it had two windows at the front and the walls were brick or concrete. The roof likely was thatched. Could be wooden tiles, but thatch is more likely.

Mary’s property was probably one of the Burke holdings but for some reason her name doesn’t appear. I have come across that before. I agree with you that it is likely to be near the school, judging by the numerical order of the occupants. Mary Hughes (house 8) had plot 16 and Rose McGarvey had house 7, and she is recorded on plot 15, so Mary’s was in that immediate area.

Prior to 1864 we rely on church baptism records. Unfortunately not all records have survived. Even where they do still exist they are not all on-line either. Those reasons may be why you cannot find anything for Mary Thompson. Tynan Church of Ireland has records back to 1686 (with a few gaps). Have you checked them? Middletown Church of Ireland, which is in the same parish, looks to have no baptisms before 1880 suggesting they were destroyed in the 1922 fire. No easy way round that.

Incidentally re Mary’s death in 1903, she died in Cavandoogan, not Ashfort. William was living at Ashfort then which is why it appears on the death certificate under his name as informant, but Mary didn’t die there. If someone died away from home their usual address normally appears under their name. In this case the place of death is simply recorded as Cavandoogan. So she died at home.

Elwyn,

Thank you so much for the additional information. We have updated our records accordingly. 
 

Although we have found entries for William’s marriage and burial in the Middletown Church of Ireland records, we have not been able to find any relating to his Sister, Mary. We are wonder if this might be because she identifies as an Episcopalian in the 1901 Census, and would have therefore not been a member of the congregation of her Brother’s church? We’re also curious to know if the reason that William’s marriage to Ellen Hughes was performed at His Church under a special license was due to her being a Roman Catholic - or if this was a normal church practice of the time to avoid posting the Bans, etc.?

We’ve noted your suggestion that we look into the Tynan Church of Ireland’s records for possible information relating to William and Mary, and are wondering if this is because this church would hold records for the adjacent Middletown Church of Ireland?
 

Unfortunately, although we’ve been fortunate in discovering a fair amount about William’s life, and that of his two sisters, and are very happy to have achieved this, we are still frustrated by being unable to uncover more family information. We know only from his Wedding License that his Father’s name was George, and that he was a laborer. His Mother’s name, as customary, was not recorded. At this point , we know only that he had two Sisters, Eliza and Mary, both who remained unmarried and resided with him (Eliza) and very close (Mary). We’re wondering if one of these sisters might have been named after their Mother, if that was possibly a common practice at that time?
 

As always, any assistance or ideas would be very welcome.

The Church of Ireland is a protestant Episcopalian denomination, so Mary was the same denomination as her brother, just she expressed it differently on the census. (William & Elizabeth also used the term Episcopalian in the 1901 census).

Being a Roman Catholic would not have been a problem for Ellen, and would not explain the special licence. The Church of Ireland marries all denominations and no special arrangements are required for that. Special licenses are more expensive than banns, and are often used if the couple need to marry in a hurry (eg because the bride is about to give birth) or because they were about to emigrate and weren’t able to wait the usual 3 or 4 weeks. Special licenses can also be obtained for a marriage where they couple don’t meet the normal residential requirements for that parish.

I suggested checking Tynan’s baptism records because it’s part of the same parish as Middletown and Killylea. You don’t know precisely where William was born. It might have been near Middletown, and in that case no records appear to exist, but he might have been born near Tynan and baptised there. Killylea only has records from 1845 which is too late, but I have a feeling the church only opened then so it can probably be ruled out.

The girls might be named after close relatives. There was a tradition of naming children according to the following rules:

The 1st son was usually named after the father's father

  The 2nd son was usually named after the mother's father

   The 3rd son was usually named after the father

    The 4th son was usually named after the father's eldest brother

     The 5th son was usually named after the mother's eldest brother

 The 1st daughter was usually named after the mother's mother

  The 2nd daughter was usually named after the father's mother

   The 3rd daughter was usually named after the mother

    The 4th daughter was usually named after the mother's eldest sister

     The 5th daughter was usually named after the father's eldest sister

The problem with relying too heavily on naming patterns is that, apart from the fact that not all families followed it, there are lots of things that can upset it. Common ones that I have encountered are:

when the father and either of the grandparents have the same name. So you obviously can’t really have two or even three sons all with the same name, so a different name is needed though some families did actually use the same name again on the birth certificate, but differentiated with another more informal name for day to day use. So if you had two Georges (as per birth certs) you just called one of them something else eg Simon;

if a child dies young, then it was common practice to re-use the name for the next birth. But if you don’t know about the death, your analysis of who they were named after could be completely wrong.

It’s taken us a little time to digest the above, and look to begin our inquiries with the Church of Ireland parish at Tynan. Unfortunately, the only church we seem to be able to find for Tynan Parish is the one in Middletown, where we know William was married and buried. They did not have any birth records for him. However, the “My Heritage “ site did find a William Thompson, born 5 February 1832, registered in the Tynan Church of Ireland, in Cortynan Townland, County Armagh. This record notes it was a noted illegitimate birth. There is no mention of a Mother or Father in the “My Heritage “ record. We don’t know if this is the correct William Thompson, but would like to try and find the original church record. Would you be aware of how to do this? Unfortunately, we just don’t seem to find any information on the internet as to the details of the Church of Ireland parish in Tynan!
 

Any suggestions or advice would be much appreciated.

thank you,

David

According to my guide to Church of Ireland records, the originals for Tynan St Vindic church are still held by the church. You can write to the current Minister and ask him/her to search the records. If they choose to do that they usually charge a fee. I think it’s about £19 an hour.

There is a copy of the same records in PRONI (the public record office) where they are viewable free, and they contain the following:

Baptisms, 1686-1725 and 1806-97; marriages, 1683-1723, 1806-18, 1821-45 and 1886-1923; burials, 1683-1723 and 1806-97; vestry minutes, accounts etc., 1699-1960.

Accounts, c.1830-1835

Maps of townlands in the Church of Ireland Parish of Tynan, c.1880.

If you are unable to go yourself, you could employ a researcher. Researchers in the PRONI area: http://sgni.net

Here’s the contact details for the church. Unfortunately the wesbite says there’s no Minister there at present which may mean you won’t get anyone to look the records up for you. But you can ask. http://www.armagh.anglican.org/Parishes/TynanAghavillyMiddletown.html