Coleman

You can see the Coleman farm on Griffiths Valuation (1861). Bernard Coleman had plot 6 in Tullyvanus which was a 22 acre farm In addition nearby Denis, Patrick & Edward had small quantities of land nearby (plots 7, 8 & 9) but no house so they presumably lived with Bernard.

Judging by Google Earth, the main property still looks to be a working farm today.

https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

You can search for births, deaths & marriages 1864 onwards on this site:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp

Events for someone living in Tullyvanus should be registered in Castleblaney.

This looks to be Bernard’s death in 1882 aged 67:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Wife Bridget died in 1885:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Family in 1901: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Monaghan/Church_Hill/T…

And in 1911: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Monaghan/Church_Hill/T…

For events prior to 1864 (when statutory registration started) you will need to rely on church records. Muckno RC records start in 1835 and are on the nli website and also rootsireland (subscription).

The tithe applotment records for 1827 list Den(is) & Ow(en) farming in Tullyvanus:

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp

Getting back much before that will be challenging.

Thanks, I have a bit of that information, but interesting that they could have all lived together as extended family. I looked at 1901 census brigid age doesn't connect to her date of birth 1863 .. But I've been trying to find Bernards and brigid children, so far I have Maria 1838, Mary 1849, Patrick 1853, Denis 1855, James 1856 and Bridget 1863 ,I've tried searching parish records, I have a lot of trouble trying to decipher as I have only one eye . Another couple of puzzling things is after 1901 census, can't find them could they have moved ,their deaths etc ,if they attended school where would they have gone ? As James ended up being a teacher of elocution. Thwnks for your help

Josie,

In Ireland in the 1800s people generally did not celebrate birthdays and so often did not know precisely how old they were. Ages on censuses and other official documents were frequently just guesses and it’s common to see discrepancies. The age on a death certificate for someone in their 70s could easily be out by 10 years either way. Standard advice when looking for baptisms is to search 5 years either side of the apparent age.

Re where the family were after 1901, Denis, Bridget and Rosina are still on the farm in Tullyvanus in 1911 (see the link I gave you).

You can search for their deaths using the irishgenealogy site I referred you to.

This might be Bridget’s death in 1950:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Denis’s death in 1925. Sister Bridget was the informant:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Possibly Patrick’s death in 1929:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Mary’s death in 1906:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Can’t help with which school they attended. Don’t know the area well enough.

Thanks so much, just another question, the Griffith evaluation was for 1861 so would they have resided elsewhere before 1861 like Tullyhattina or tullycoora as they had a lot of time in court with family matters

Yes it’s possible that Denis, Patrick & Edward lived in another townland. It would be nearby though as obviously they had regular work to do on their land in Tullyvanus. Usually when someone lived elsewhere, Griffiths put the townland where they lived in brackets after their name. That does not occur here so I think it more likely they were living with Bernard in Tullyvanus. Northern Standard of 13th December 1856 reported that Edward Coleman of Tullyvanus won a 15/- farming improvement prize for “Greatest Improvements about a house, offices and yard.” That suggests he lived there then.

I spotted this death in Tullyvanus for an Edward born c 1868:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Bernard Coleman of Tullyvanus is listed in the Northern Standard 14th Dec 1839 as registering to vote. (That meant he had land with a value of over £10 a year, which in turn indicated he was quite well off by Irish farming standards).

The Griffith evaluation for 1861 states what land he had ,but out of curiosity would that be the same land he had in 1841and 1839 ? I saw it in the northern standard yesterday, also saw many court cases between the families In 1911 census Domhnac colmain,what does it translation I had a lady contact me about her coleman family in monaghan ,she has done a dna but no match ,but a lot of shared names

I can’t say whether the land he had in 1861 was the same as in earlier years, except that the farm seems a lot bigger then than in the 1830s.

Prior to Griffiths records were a bit intermittent. In the tithes Owen & Den together had 4 acres, 2 roods and 6 perches. That was in Irish acres. Equal to about 7 statue acres (Griffiths is in statue acres). In Griffiths the total land held by all the Colemans in Tullyvanus is around 35 acres, so it had increased in size considerably.

You could search the Registry of Deeds records on Familysearch to see if there are any leases for the years you are interested in. That might show changes. Can be hard going if you are not familiar with those documents and how they are filed.

The 1911 census lists Domhnic, Brigid & Rosin. That appears to me to be Denis, Brigid & Rosina Coleman. (In Irish the prefix O’ is used for male names, Ni for unmarried females & Mhic if married)

Thanks once again Elwyn ,I have learnt so much .I have just 2 more questions Sarah Coleman born 1899 in Belfast to James and Margaret (Cullen) is the only death out of their children I cannot find aka as Sally. I have had a DNA test through ancestry and so I have a Thomas D Coleman 4 Dec 1858 parents Denis and Ellen Healy born in Cork could this be Bernards cousin or just a relative?

Sorry one more thing I looked on find my past and ancestry and can only find the death of Edward coleman 1898 ,but no birth or parents name .I think when there's so many its hard to keep track of who owns which children

Josie,

Informant for Edward’s death was “Patrick Coleman, brother of deceased.” So if you know who Patrick’s parents were then you know Edward’s too. I looked for Edward’s baptism and birth c 1868 but did not see it.

The censuses have cousin Rosina Campbell staying in Tullyvanus. She was born in Belfast. Suspect this is her birth:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

Parents Henry Campbell & Mary Quinn. They married in Belfast in 1867. Can’t see how they are related to the Coleman family but perhaps you know more about them:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…

Thanks Elwyn , very large family, and with them all living under one roof it is hard ,I know Bernard had a son Patrick and Denis,but I could only find Edwards death and I don't think it's their brother as I couldn't imagine Brigid Coleman Coleman having a child 30 years after her first, but interesting. I have one more question about a Sara Coleman born 1899 Belfast to James Coleman and Margaret (Cullen) I have her birth but can't find her death,she also went by the name Sally,she never married,I've tried obituaries, find my past family search and ancestry

Josie,

Sally & Sarah are interchangeable names, like John & Jack, Peggy & Margaret, Robin & Robert. There are many of them.

Neither Ancestry nor fmp have births, deaths or marriages in Northern Ireland from 1922 onwards. You need to use the GRONI website for them. I searched for deaths 1921 to 1972 (which is the current cut off for on-line records). There were quite a few Sarah Coleman deaths in that period. Closest I could see was on 8th Feb 1964 in Belfast, aged 63. You might want to look at that.

You can view the original certificate on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option. You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

If you think that she died within the past 50 years, then those records are not on-line. They are open to the public but just not on-line. You either need to go into GRONI in person or pay them to search for you.

If Sally was Catholic and lived in Belfast she is probably buried in Milltown cemetery.

Thanks Elwyn ,for all your help . Can I ask which ancestry group might be more relevant to me ,so would roots of Ireland be a good site ? I would like to wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy new year

Ancestry and Findmypast are both reputable companies and you may find a lot of helpful information on their sites. My only word of caution, as before, is that neither has the birth, death or marriages for Northern Ireland after 31.12.1921. You have to use the pay to view GRONI site to access them. And for births you have to either go into GRONI in person or ring them up and pay them to search for you. No easy way round that.

I occasionally go to GRONI and so if there’s something you specially want to search for, let me know and I’ll see if I can find it. (I can look for Sara/Sally’s death if you want). There is a fee to view each record so you would need to reimburse me for that.

I was in GRONI today and saw 3 possible Sarah Coleman deaths in indexes for the Belfast registration area. One was of 30.12.1972 aged 79, another 11.10.1981 born 29.6.1898 & the last 14.7.1984 born 8.9.1906. My money would be on the 1898 born one as that’s the closest to the year you gave.

If you want to view that certificate, you can go on-line and order it from the GRONI website. (It’s not possible to view post 1922 NI certificates free).

my Sarah Agnes coleman 3.8.1899 Belfast. I wish you a very Merry Christmas and a happy new year

Ages and dates of birth on death certificates are often not correct. (No documentary evidence was required) and so an error of a year or two is not uncommon. Probably the only way of finding the correct death is by paying to view those that are about the correct age.