James Gillen dob 21 June 1841 Cushendall, County Antrim, Ireland

Ann,

Link here to the 1840 marriage. Irish records in those years didn’t contain much information. All you often got were the names, the date and the 2 witnesses. This is typical:

https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633074#page/45/mode/1up

However I may have a hint of where your ancestors came from. They married in the parish of Layd. I searched Griffiths (1861) for Gillen/Gillan in Layd. I found a James Gillan in the townland of Tromra. He had a labourer/weaver’s cottage on plot 2b. Immediately next door on plot 3 was a John Torp farming 7 acres.  In the mid 1800s most courting was done on foot and it was common to marry the girl next door.  Literally in some cases. This might be your two families. There was an Ellen Gillan farming nearby on plot 7. Likely a widow but probably related.

Looking at the farms today on Google Earth, I’d say that plots 2 & 3 have been amalgamated and are now part of plot 4. That farm is down a lane off the Tromra Rd.

You might want to make enquiries around Tromra, but there were no Gillen or T(h)orp families living there by 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Cushendall/Tromra/

You can use the Valuation revision records on the PRONI website to see exactly when they left. 

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/searching-valuation-revision-books

And you may be able to get some death certificates form that. Deaths etc in Tromra would be registered in Ballycastle. You can view the original certificates on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option: 

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate. 

Hello,

My great grandfather was James Gillen's son William, b 1870.  I do not know much beyond what you know about James' parents being James Gillen and Margaret Thorpe. I have their other children being Henry, who also lived in Greenpoint, Brooklyn and Ellen, Rose and Thomas. (I would have to dig through my papers to find where that info came from. I have not done much research in the past 15 years or so).

I am curious where you found Johanna O'Brien's place of birth?  We had always heard that she was from Co. Cork but never had a source for that.

Did you know Sr. Ann?  My mother used to write to her and she once came to our house for lunch.

Good luck and I will let you know if I find out anymore.

Catherine Ellard

Hello, Catherine.  How very exciting that we share ancestors!  So your ggfather William and my grandfather Joseph were brothers.  Are you descended from William or Edward?  My Mother, Virginia Gillen, visited with William and his family in May 1937.

I was able to find the birth certificate for Johanna O'Brien which states she was baptised in Enniskeane, County Cork.  I find the jurisdiction designations very difficult to comprehend but am currently trying to find the townland where the family lived.  In doing this research, I think the more proper name of the parish is Desertserges (rather than Enniskeane) but am surely not definite!

And, yes indeed, I knew Sr. Ann.  She's my mother's baby sister and I am actually her namesake as I was born 1941, the year she took vows.  She stayed at our home many times during the last 15-20 years of her life when she would visit Houston.  She left a plethora of boxes full of genealogy info she had collected during her many travels.  Some are the many letters she wrote and some are, literally, phone numbers, no name, on a napkin!  I had the very great honor of being in Rosemont with her during the last 2 weeks of her life. 

Perhaps we could stay in contact and share family stories, photos, etc.  If you're interested, please email me:

ann_bill_coffey@sbcglobal.net

Also, my tree on Ancestry is public: Farrell Gillen Tree January 2019

Elwyn, Thank you so much for all your very helpful information.  Looking thru Griffith's Valuation was interesting and helpful.  But, how did you determine that James Gillen was living in a laborer's/weavers cottage? Griffith's shows James living same Plot thru the listing of 1878-1884.  GRONI lists the death of a James Gillen, 10 Feb 1877 in Cushendall.  He's listed as a bachelor, working as a laborer.  Would he be listed as bachelor if his wife was deceased?.  BUT perhaps it's not the correct James GIllen as Griffith's lists him still living in Tromra, Plot 2b.  Your thoughts?

I think I can fairly accurately assume that the John Torp living in Tromra on plot 3 is James Gillen's father-in-law, the father of his wife Margaret Thorp.  PRONI lists John Torp Tromra Plot 3 thru 1864-1866 but not after that date.  I found a civil registration listing the death of John Torp, Ballycastle, 1872.  Do you think this might be accurate?

According to family information, James Gillen had a daughter named Ellen but I have not been able to find even a baptism cert for her.  It seems unlikely that this daughter would be the same Ellen Gillen living Tromra, plot 3a 1861.  Your thoughts please.  Griffith's lists Neil McCormack as occupying Plot 8B which is owned by Ellen Gillen.  Neil McCormack married Rose Gillen, daughter of James Gillen & Margaret Thorp.  They moved to the US, settling in Brooklyn, NY.

Regards and thanks for any help with my research.

Ann

Ann,

You ask how I know the property 2b in Tromra was a labourer/weaver’s cottage. The short answer is it’s a house with no land on someone else’s farm. That was standard for labourer’s cottages at that time. If you look carefully at plot 2 in Tromra you will see that James McGaugh had a 36 acre farm (plot 2a) and that he had 1 labourer’s cottage which he let to James Gillan. (Next door on plot 3 was John Torp with a 7 acre farm).

A common arrangement in Ireland at that time was that most farmers would build one or more labourer’s cottages on their land which they would then let out. Rent could be paid in cash but was often paid by an agreed number of days work a year on the farm instead (it was largely a barter society then), after which the labourer was free to take any other work that might be available. In the winter months, when labouring work was scarce, they’d do a bit of weaving on a hand loom weaving machine in their cottage. (Similar to the machines still used in the Outer Hebrides to make Harris Tweed). Weaving provided a little cash (an exception to the barter economy) and meant that folk with that extra income suffered slightly less than the average labourer in Ireland during the famine and other lean times. In the period 1841 – 1851 the population of Ireland as a whole dropped 20% due to emigration and famine, but in Co Antrim it only dropped by 2%. It wasn’t the worst county to be living in during the famine years, though there were some famine deaths and over-population and other factors still led to massive migration.

You mention that you cannot find a baptism for James Gillen’s daughter Ellen. Layd RC parish records have gaps in them, so I suspect she was born during the gap. Baptisms exist for 1838 – 1844 but there are none until 1858. Likewise marriages cover 1837 to 1844 and then 1860 onwards. 

The James Gillen death you have found is interesting. It was in Tromra but he was a bachelor and so he is unlikely to be the father of James born 1841, who we know married. As you say, there was another Gillen property in Tromra (Ellen on plot 7). When a woman appears as a farmer in Griffiths she’s usually a widow. So possibly the James who died in 1877 was her son. I notice the informant was a McMullen from Tromra and plot 6 next door to Ellen was held by McMullans.  I could be wrong about Ellen’s marital status but I don’t think so in this case. The norm was for the farm to go to the eldest son, failing which the next son.  I have come across the occasional household where an unmarried woman was farming but it’s very rare. Probably a family of only daughters and no other close relatives. A son in law would usually be invited to step in and run the farm before a single daughter. So I am pretty sure Ellen in Tromra was a widow. Also Griffiths for Tromra was compiled in 1861. If James Gillen only married in 1841 and had James jr in 1842, his daughter Ellen must have been born after that. Probably after 1844 given the known gap in the records. So in 1861 she’d have been about 15, or less. She was not going to be a tenant farmer then. This might be Tromra Ellen’s death in 1879, aged 90.  So she’d have been of an age to be the mother of William born c 1822 who died in 1877:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

You ask about the death of John Torp in 1872 and whether he might be the Tromra John Torp. The short answer is yes. That certificate has just gone on-line free so you can view it now. (They added the years 1871 to 1877 to the irishgenealogy site about 3 days ago!). He was a widower and a weaver. Informant was William Torp of what may be Cloghs.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1872/020750/7279570.pdf

Bella Torp, farmers wife, died in Tromra in 1871. She may well be John’s wife:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1871/020767/7285350.pdf

Henry Torp died there in 1873 aged 23. He was married:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1873/020710/7266634.pdf

A son Henry Torp died there later in 1873:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1873/020700/7262805.pdf  Catherine Torp was the informant. The birth certificate tells us the mother was born Catherine McKay.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03213/2178123.pdf

Another Torp couple living there at the same time was William Torp and Mary Murphy whose daughter Laetitia was born in 1872.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03226/2182417.pdf

Tromra is not big so these Torps will likely all be related. In the 1901 census there were only 34 people living there in 9 houses all within 200 yards of each other:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Cushendall/Tromra/

The tithe applotment records list those with land. So they don’t list labourers, servants and others without land. The tithes for Tromra in 1826 list a James Gillan. So he’s an adult, someone born around 1800 or earlier and was a farmer. Bound to be connected with those living there later. Likewise John Torp is listed too.

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/layd-parish.p…

Elwyn, I've taken the past few months to go very carefully thru all the useful links and information you've so kindly provided.  Since the Tithe Applotment records list James Gillen in 1826 BUT he's living in a weaver's cottage in 1841....what does this indicate?

PRONI lists James Gillen, 2B, thru 1878-1884.  I still have been unable to locate death information for him...any further suggestions?

Rose Gillen McCormick, (1853-1933)  the daughter of James Gillen and Margaret Thorp requested the 1851 census.  She applied for this (perhaps b/c she was entitled to some benefits?) when she was 70 years old & living in Brookklyn, NY, in 1920.  The address on the application is listed as: William S. Gillen, Cushendall, Co Antrim.  Would this be an address of a relative living in Cushendall in 1920.

James Gillen (1841-1915), the son of James Gillen & Margaret Thorp, is listed on several trees on Ancestry as: SIR James Gillen.  No one can give me any information or explanation about this title.  All of my informatioin about him (he's my g grandfather) indicates he was certainly not wealthy enough to have purchased a title.  Any ideas?

My own DNA results from Ancestry indicated 55% Ireland (which I can account for by multiple maternal and paternal ancestors).  It also lists 36% Scotland.  So far, I have not been able to find anyone from Scotland.  I noticed the following on one of your replies on the mesesage board:

"Folk could get to Scotland much more easily than over the hills to Ballymena. Supplies often came from Campbeltown (town in Scotland) not Belfast. And of course many of the folk around Layd originated in Scotland  anyway on the MacDonald estates there, having come over in the 1400s and 1500s"

My McDonnell ancestors were from Urlingford Parish, County Kilkenny.  On various documents, the name is also spelled McDonald.  Martin McDonnell, dob 1815 Urlingford.  His parents Michael McDonnell and Catherine? no other information.  Any suggestions? 

As always, any assistance would be very much appreciated.

Kindest regards,

Ann Coffey

Ann,

Sorry about the delay in replying. I have only just come across your response. 

The date of Griffiths Valuation for Tromra was 1861 (not 1841). The year is in the “Details box” on Griffiths.

To be in the tithes in 1826 and a labourer’s cottage in 1861 could indicate a number of possibilities. One is that his circumstances had declined and he had gone down from being a farmer to a labourer. Another could be that he was living alone, semi-retired perhaps, and someone else was running the farm. Or it could be a different James Gillen.

Can’t really help with finding a death post 1884. I have searched and can’t find one that matches either. So either he had move away from that area or his death wasn’t registered, which did happen.

The reason that Rose applied for a copy of the 1851 census would normally be because she had reached 70 and was entitled to a state pension. The Old Age Pension was introduced in Britain and Ireland in 1909. You had to be 70 or older and proof of age was required.  The problem that created was that birth certificates had only been introduced in 1864 in Ireland so no-one there would have a birth certificate to produce. So alternative proof of age was accepted. That included baptismal certificates, some marriage certificates (depending on when you married), military discharge papers etc. For those who had none of those, the next option was to look at the 1851 and occasionally the 1841 censuses, to see what age you were then. Obviously if that age made you over 70 at date of pension application, then you got your pension.

The term “Sir” indicates either that he had received a knighthood, or that he was a baronet. Both are gifts of the king or queen, and supposedly can’t be bought (though in the 1920s Prime Minister Lloyd George was famously discovered to have been offering them for a fee).  If he were knighted or given a baronetcy (a lowly form of nobility) he would be listed in Burke’s Peerage. You can search that on-line (for a fee). I am not saying that a small farmer/labourer in the Glens of Antrim couldn’t be knighted, but it’s probably not very likely. And it would have been widely reported in the papers, and listed in the London Gazette (which is on-line).  If you don’t find him listed there, then it’s probably a load of nonsense.

Re DNA and Scotland, a huge proportion of the population of the Glens are descendants of Scots who settled in the area from the 1500s onwards. Here’s a link to a history of the ferry from Cushendun to Scotland:

https://antrimhistory.net/ferry-me-across-the-water/

A couple of books on the links between the Glens and Scotland you might find interesting are: “Antrim & Argyll – Some aspects of the Connections” edited by William Roulston ISBN 978-1-909556-63-8 which tells you all about the connections and how folk moved back and forth.  Also “Family names in the Glens of Antrim” by Brian S Turner (a recent publication).

During the time of the Plantation of Ulster there was little difference between the Gaelic of many Scottish settlers and the Irish of the natives. The Irish of Antrim shared many features with Scottish Gaelic, and the Gaelic of Kintyre and Argyll was very similar to Antrim Irish. Robert MacAdam wrote in 1873:

Even yet the Glensmen of Antrim go regularly to Highland fairs, and communicate without the slightest difficulty with the Highlanders. Having myself conversed with both Glensmen and Arranmen, I can testify to the absolute identity of their speech (Ó Baoill 2000: 122).

In 1654, Joan Blaeu, a Dutch visitor to Kintyre (the area of Land in Scotland just across from the Glens of Antrim) wrote:

“Today in the Irish language, which is in use over this whole area, it is called Kintyre, that is head of land. It is inhabited by the family of MacConell, which has lordship here but at the pleasure of the Earl of Argyll; they regularly go off to Ireland for booty in their light ships, and have occupied the small provinces called Glens and An Rata/The Route.” 

So evidence of them going to and forth in the 1600s. Mac-Conell is a variant of MacDonald/McDonnell. The Route is the area between Ballymoney and Coleraine.

The Glens of Antrim are easily accessible today via the coast road that runs up from Larne to Ballycastle but until that road was built in the 1840s, the Glens were very isolated. The only way in and out was really by sea (unless you undertook a 15 mile trek over the moors to Ballymena). It was easier to get to Scotland than to Belfast. So Glensmen had lots of contact with Scotland then.

The DNA of many Scots and Irish could be very close. (It’s only 10 miles from Scotland to Ireland, so common DNA would not be at all surprising). But remember too that DNA ethnicity tests aren’t all that accurate at times. Guesstimates in some cases.

Hello Elwyn,

This has been an extremely informative reply, which I’ve book marked for future reference. Knowledge like this is a great thing!

Many thanks,

Dave Boylan

Dave,

Thanks for your kind remarks.  But it may just be that in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.