Pogue / Cook(e) / Stretton Family

Robyn:

Welcome to Ireland Reaching Out!

I added your message to the Chronicles item for James Pogue. The original poster should be notified about your message.

Roger McDonnell

Hi Robyn,

Sorry for the delay on replying to your message. I haven't logged onto this site in a while.

I'm at a very early stage on my ancestors in Ireland. I've recently found a 1824 Upper Canada Land Petion document that actually pointed to the fact that my 2x Great Grandfather James Pogue and his wife Elizabeth Hanna, and my 3x Great Grandfather Stuart Pogue (born c1771) and his wife Jane came from the Parish Carrigallen in County Leitrim. I have a write up on my family from a cousin of my fathers that I'm working from, and trying to verify any mentioned documented points in their life. This was created in 1969 with some updates by my Father since. So all I know from Ireland is this Parish and County. The Townland of Linaugh is also mentioned through an 1821 census. I'm trying to understand the geological layout of this info as well to hopefully expand on Ireland connections. Again, I find this to be in the early stages.

My 2x and 3x Great Grandfather did finally reside in the County of Victoria, Township of OPS, in the province of Ontario. Their land is just east of the Village of Omemee which is in Emily Township.

I'm not sure of any connection to your 4x Great Grandmother, but the birth dates and same area do make me wonder.

Not sure if I was any help, but will definitly be keeping your Pogue connection in my files for future reference.

Thanks for the contact and if you have any more queries I'd be glad to check what I have. I'm wondering if you have anything further on you're 4x Great Grandmother Margaret Pogue and her father Charles that may have a connection to my 3x Great Grandfather Stuart Pogue.

Mike Pogue

Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada

Hi,

My great grandfather was born in Carrigallen in 1871, and my father's family is from Leitrim/Roscommon. I've put the family genealogists onto it!

Best wishes,

Robert Pogue.

Hi Robert,

Wow. Interesting to see if there's a connection.

Thanks

Mike

Hello Robyn, Mike & Robert

Robert has passed my this link and I have looked through my Pogue family documents, but unfortunately I have been unable to add anything new. 

I did acquire some while ago a 32 page Word document which contained various snippets of info on Pogues, gleaned from various sources, which seems to have been collated by a Grahame Pogue of Australia - if you haven't already seen this document I could send you a copy. It does refer to Mike's comments regarding Stuart and Jane Pogue from Linaugh,; info provided by George D. Pogue.

I endeavoured to link this info to the Pogues which feature in the 2 available full Censuses (1901 & 1911), but had limited success. But of course your immediate families would not appear as they had already emigrated. Did they leave families behind?

For the record, I have been able to trace my Pogue branch back to my 2xgrandfather Charles Pogue born about 1850 in the area east of Mohill, Co. Leitrim. From BMD and other records, there was a cluster of Pogues in that area of Leitrim & Cavan, mainly in farming. His father was also a Charles, as were many other Pogues so trying to link families without decent census details is frustratingly difficult. My 2xgrandfather married Jane Ellen Stoddart (formerly Rosemond) in 1870; they had 2 sons John Robert and Charles who eventually moved to Belfast. Jane Ellen died in 1877 and Charles then married Annie Bannon in 1892 - they had 5 children Margaret Elizabeth (my grandmother) 1873, William Stewart 1874, Joseph 1896, Annie 1899 and George Edward Albert 1901.

Hope this might help; any further sources you have would be helpful.

Kind regards

Peter Over 

Hello Peter, Mike and Robert:

Thanks for your input. If you would be willing to upload documents through here .... Mike, I would love to see that 1824 Land Grant, and Peter, that Word document about your Pogues would be great to peruse.

Our family lore said that our Strettons and Cookes (nee Pogue) came from Cavan, but their burial records show both being born in Leitrim. However I know how close the areas were, and perhaps they moved the 10km or so and resided in Cavan before they left. When I was in Ireland in 2019 (brief visit, next time will be longer), I found a document showing that Robert Stretton was leasing farm land around Mohill. Family stories also talk about how the family was harassed and threatened; newspaper articles in the years before they left for Canada about 1844 confirm that there were troubles for the Protestants, especially in their area. (The Stretton/Cookes were definitely Church of Ireland.)

It is unfortunate that my ancestors left Ireland just before the Potato Famine, as I have been unable to find a departure or arrival record. I'm not even sure where the departure from Ireland would have been, or if they went via England. It is also possible that they landed in the US (as did my Yorkshire ancestors who also ended up in Reach Township, Ontario) as Canada was charging fees for entering immigrants at the time, so many landed at New York and then make their way through the waterways west to Ontario.

I used to tell my mother that genealogy answers sometimes take 7 years and a day to show up (which happened with her German ancestors who emigrated to the US in 1650), so I still have hope that these breadcrumbs will result in some larger leads. I will take all of this information and try and glean other details that I can add to my research.

Thank you for your help and replies; I appreciate it!

Robyn Kendall, Vernon, BC, Canada

Hi Robyn, Peter and Robert,

This sure has opened a lot. I never had expected this.

Peter, you mentioned a 32 page document. I'd really be interested in seeing it. The info you stated about Stuart and Jane that came from a George D Pogue, I'm pretty sure that is my Dad's cousin George David Pogue. As I stated earlier, he started this in 1969 and my Dad has kind of updated it. George's document includes everything from Stuart and Jane to today. I don't have anything that seems to show they left family behind. I also got another document, about 100 pages, which is entitled the Decendants of John Pogue. This has a family tree that starts with John and follows people into the 1980's. He emmigrated to Canada around 1818 and to Emily Township in Victoria County about 1820. I have no idea where this originated, but my family from Stuart and Jane are included, plus from what I've read, Stuart and Janes daughter married this John Pogue. He is no prior relation to my family, yet the stories in the document are starting to conflict with what I know of some people. I'm still trying to piece together the Canadian side. Few documents pre-1850. Also, I've been struggling with following people who emmigrated into Ops and Emily Township in Victoria County as they are using a lot of the same names for their children. I think I've run into at least 3 or 4 James and don't get me started on Elizabeth. 

Robyn, no problem with the Land Petition. I'll upload that for you. If I've been able to understand, the grant document is not digitized yet. I know when they sent in the petition, but the Land Registry on the land has a later date, by years, so I don't know when exactly they got the land. I've also been trying to figure how they got to Ontario. The Land Petition shows they were in Cobourg, Ontario in 1824. I got a copy of an affidavit showing they arrived in Cobourg around July 1824 and a copy of a Pledge of Allegiance from Stuart and James in Jan 1825.

How do we go about passing around these documents? Fairly new to this website, so I don't know the best way to send it. As an attachment to the post?

Mike

I guess that you can upload to the post. If you want to keep it off the posting site, I think you can see that my nickname on here is catsitter, and email is that name at Shaw.ca.

I found a document online sometime ago, from someone whose Yorkshire ancestors were on the same arrival boat into New York as my Kendalls. The document (somewhere on one of my 3 computers) detailed how they got from New York to Ontario. If you want, I can locate that. Have you checked CastleGarden.org to see if your family came through NY (before Ellis Island opened in 1893)? The search there is a bit cumbersome and slow, but that's where I found records. Also available through Ancestry of course, but Ellis Island and Castle Garden are free.

Robyn.

Hi Robyn, Mike & Robert

Had problem uploading loading the 32 pages on this site, so have sent document as a link to Robyn using Microsoft OneDrive.

Robyn - Hope it worked.

Mike - if you are happy to send your email address to me at pcowsm@gmail.com I'll send it to you. Re. the descendants of John Pogue document, I'd be interested in any data up to when he emigrated  in 1818 to see if I can link it to other Pogues.

Peter  

Hi Robyn, Peter and Robert,

Robyn, I'll try to upload it to here first. If it doesn't work, like with Peter, then I'll email it.

I've tried many passenger list sites from Ireland and over here that I've come across and never seen a Pogue. Ancestry hasn't provided anything as well. The Castlegarden site is new to me. Thanks, I'll look into it next. I wasn't sure where they would come in if the US was first.

Peter, I'll send you an email for that document. As for the one I have, it only starts from when John Pogue was in Canada. The person who compiled the info has both John and his wife he married in Ontario and family after plus stories about the early generations of family. You will probably find it interesting, but not sure on the info. There is a tie into my family. Issue I have is it's hard copy only, so I'll have to scan it all. Not a problem to do, I'll just need a few days.to get it done. Don't mind doing it. I'll have a backup copy then.

Thanks 

Mike

Hi Robyn,

The files are posted. I translated the main request so theres an extra file. The tird is the back of the letter.

Mike

Interesting about the land grant. I have seen lots to do with United Empire Loyalists (on my mother's side), but I see that this is from a different set in the Archives - Civil Secretaries Correspondence, which I didn't know contained land grants. I will have to look through this area of the Archives to see if there are any grants for my Strettons as it is a great way to confirm their home town land. I'm going to check and see if there is an online index.  Robyn.

Hi Robyn,

This was my start for Ireland when I found it. It was written in some documents I have from others, but I wanted to see the proof myself. A great moment. I know there is a Land Grant document which I think is what they send the petitioner, but I haven't found any and believe many are not digitized. Something to look for at the Ontario Archives once it opens. The problem I have is the Land Registry for the land shows them registred on the land in 1844, 20 years later. So the land grant is my next thing to find to understand the discrepency in the years. Possible they were given another lot first. More to the puzzle.

Since I mentioned it, I'm not sure if you're aware, but you can look up the Land Registry now online. Not sure if all of it is complete for Ontario, but a good resourse to see the info of ownership on the land they owned.  https://www.onland.ca/ui/

Mike

Hi Robyn & Mike

Having done some more trawling through my documents & internet, I have made some progress re.the Pogues around Carrigallen. It is looking more than likely that we three have common ancestors but it may be difficult to definitely prove it!

I attach a couple of documents. The first shows the locations in the area of southern Leitrim where I have found likely instances of 'our' Pogues, and (Cookes). The distance covering the three parishes of Carrigallan, Cloone and Mohill is only about 20 miles, and the Cookes are concentrated in the townland of Gortermone, south west of Carrigallen Town. Incidentally, Robyn, Google Maps show the area of Gortermone, including Gortermore House.

We are fortunate that Carrigallen is one of the very few places whose 1821 Census has survived. If you look on rootsweb.com it gives details by surname and townland. In some instances Pogue was then spelt 'Pouge'. Mike mentioned the townland of Linaugh. I have not been able to find this but the 1821 Census shows a townland of Sinaugh which contains my 2xGG Charles at dwelling No. 4 and Mike's Stuart & Jane at No. 7. Jane and Elizabeth are shown as Stuart rather than Pouge but this could be a typo; there are several other Stuart families around.

In Gortermone at dwelling 6 Margaret Cooke b 1783 is shown as Head of family; no mention of husband, possibly he was deceased or away on day of Census. The following children are shown: Margaret b 1804, Catherine 1809, Charles 1810, MARY 1812 (1811?), James 1812 and Anne 1817. So Mary had at least 5 siblings left in Ireland.

Another interesting source of info is the 'Griffiths Valuations' compiled during mid 19th century which show land and house ownership/tenancy, by surname and townland. Go to askaboutireland.ie.. Robyn,you will' see the extent of land occupied by Cookes in Gortermone.

Document 2 is for Robyn for info. It shows marriage certificate for Elizabeth Cooke from Gortermone who married George Pogue in1875. George was my G.Grandfather's eldest son.

The tricky bit now is to work backwards from 1821 to try and find common ancestory, as C.of. Ireland records for Carrigallen parish were destroyed in 1922. Those for Cloone and Mohill have survived and are in the Representative Church Body library in Dublin. I don't think they are available online, and they probably don't cover the area that we are looking for. Coming forward from 1821 is slightly easier, if you want to trace possible relatives in Ireland.

Hope this helps, will let you know if I find anything else.

Kind regards

Peter    

Hi Peter,

Possible connection? That sounds great. I do realize the difficulty of proving it. 

You're right, I kind of goofed on the Townland. I saw Linaugh from George David Pogue's document and Sinaugh from pretty much everything else I've come across. I found, some time ago, a document online about how townlands were spelled through time and I had figured that Sinaugh was probably correct. Seeing how letters are written from documents I'm going through right now in the 1840's Canada, I see how a L and S can look the same.

I've found more information about the family of Stuart and Jane. It seems that they had four girls. Susannah (1797?), Elizabeth (1799), Charlotte (1803) and Sarah (1804). Other than Susannah and Charlotte who were married in Canada, the other two were married in Ireland. Elizabeth married James Pogue (1786) (can't positively confirm, but came across information that he was from the County Monaghan) and Sarah married a Richard Bull (1804) who I found came from Carrigallen, Leitrim.

Two things about these offspring, first, Susannah is not the child of Stuart Pogue, but is a child of Jane Pogue's. This came to be known in 1840. Also, she emigrated to Canada around 1818, before the rest of the family. Second, I'm finding information that James is not a son of Stuart and Jane's, and is married to their daughter Elizabeth. This kind of changes things.

Looking at the 1821 Cenus in Leitrim, I can't find any information confirming any of this except for the Stuart Pogue, Jane Stuart and Elizabeth Stuart. Not sure if there's anywhere else to look.

This has become quite interesting.

Mike

There are obviously more Cook(e) and Pogue families in Carrigallen than you can shake a stick at .... and they all name their children the same! :)

Peter, the Margaret Cooke in Gortermone at Dwelling 6 must be another "cousin". Attached is the 1821 Census that lead me to the Pogues -- showing Robert and Margaret Cooke and children at Dwelling 21 in Gortermone. The bottom line shows Charles Pogue as the Father-in-law. 

The Cooke sons in the Census both ended up in Ontario - Jacob (c1806-1885) married a Margaret Beaty (who was also born in Leitrim) and is buried in Brant. Abraham Cooke married a Mary Jane Copeland (born somewhere in Ireland) and is buried in Glenelg. There is also another Abraham Cooke from Ireland in Glenelg, married to a Mary. All of this Abraham Cooke's children were born in Wakefield Quebec. I don't know how this Abraham is related to my line, but he is probably another cousin.

The Cooke daughters (Frances and Catherine) may or may not have stayed in Ireland. I did a "stab in the dark" search for a Frances born in Ireland 1815 that may have ended up in Ontario, and found what I thought was a likely suspect, maried to another Irish immigrant named Thomas Mills. They were married in Drumkeeran according to the Ancestry tree. But I found out that her maiden name was Crozier. Which brings me to another possible connecting point as there are a number of Croziers buried in the Kendall Cemetery in Reach Township! Another coincidence?

That's all for now on these possible connections. Second reply to follow for Mike.

Mike: About immigration from Ireland to Canada, we all know there are few records before the Potato Famine (which was very well documented). I guess it was fortunate that our families emigrated before then, but in a way I wish that my Stretton/Cookes had waited a year or 2; then I would have been able to find them in the books at the Dublin Library. (I did look, just in case, but I believe that they came to Canada between 1843 and mid-1845.

As I discovered with my Kendalls from Yorkshire, while they intended to come to Canada, around the time they came over (1842), Canada put on a tax for people landing in Canada. Instead of paying the tax (which I saw announced in the Yorkshire newspaper around the time of their departure), the Kendalls traveled from Hull (east Coast of England) to New York. They traveled to Ontario via the Erie Canal, first going up the Hudson River from NYC, then across either to the east or west side of Lake Ontario. Map is attached.

If entry was made directly to Canada, the most likely routing is via the St. Lawrence Steamboat Company from Quebec City to Montreal, then over land or possibly on some canals. I believe that this is how my Stretton/Cookes make their way as one son was born in Smith Falls, Ontario. Here is a link to some info about the St. Lawrence Steamboat Company. http://www.thepastwhispers.net/2016/05/st-lawrence-steamboat-company.ht…

There are some lists of passengers, but not a lot of identifying details. The article has a link to a free site for (some of?) the lists. I looked and there are 4 Poge/Pogues (William in 1824 with a wife, S with a wife, son and daugther or daughters, Jn in 1828 with a wife and John in 1830). There are also a number of "Page" entries, and since the lists are handwritten, these could be Poge. There are over 250 entries for Cooke(e) and none for Stretton.

Robyn.

Hi Robyn/Mike

Thanks for your recent comments.

Mike - You seem to have hit some interesting issues with your family. Not unusual in family history research. When I first started I searched for my mother's father's birth. I spent a year before finding, thanks to a fluke, that he was a born a 'Jones' and not a 'Gibbs', Came as a shock to my mother! Look forward to hearing what you discover.

Robyn - I'm intrigued with the document you sent showing Charles at No. 21 Gortermone. The info I have used for the Census is on rootsweb and this shows a different Cooke family at No 21. With no entry for Robert & Margarets family, which is a puzzle. Unless yours is a more up to date version. I haven't been able identify this Charles Pouge (Margaret's father) with any other Pogue branch yet.

BUT - some really good news. I spotted yesterday that the Irish government has funded an attempt to recreate the archive that was lost in the fire at the Four Courts in Dublin in 1922 during Civil War. The archive that went back to the 14th century included all censuses before 1901 and C of Ireland BMD records. They hope to recover most of it from other sources in Ireland and around the world.Target date is summer 2022. Would be very useful for us.

Meanwhile, I contacted Leitrim Geneaological Centre and they have sent a summary of what records have survived for Carrigallen area - see attached.

 Cheers

Peter 

Hi Peter/Robyn,

I just found some Canadian documents lately that put a spark in my hunt and help open the story of my part of the family. But just as fast as I find something, I seem to just hit a roadblock. Its frustrating, and confusing to try and find a way around the issue. Thats Genealogy I guess. Seems that when I go back to my 2x and 3x great grandfathers, I just can't find info for births and deaths. I hope to find their burial plots this summer. Info says my 2x Great grandfather is in the same cemetery as the rest of my family, but my 3x is a unknown right now. I live within less than an hour from where they resided and buried.

I'm hopefull that the 1821 census is the correct Stuart, and there is an Elizabeth in the family, but I seem to be missing more offspring for that family that I'd think should also show up. Even husbands for the offspring aren't popping up in Ireland. I just subscribed to rootsireland.ie yesterday and a few hours of searching just hasn't shown much more. I have seen a bunch more Pogues outside of Leitrim. Having the family immigrate in 1824 just makes it harder.

Having found the wills for my 1x and 2x great grandfathers in the Land Registries has shown a few more people in the family. But everything is pre-1850 in Canada which is making connections difficult. I'm thinking its more to do with information not being digitized. Covid has stopped me from exploring that avenue  at the moment.

Nice to hear that they're looking to try and recreate the archive. That'll be a few years of work.

Thanks for looking at the records for the Carrigallen area. At least we know what's available at this time. 

Thanks for the info Robyn. I know what you mean about the date of immigration and what was happening in Ireland. Since mine immigrated in 1824, I missed the Griffiths Valuation, Peter Robinson Ships, Potato Famine, Tithe Applotment Books, just to name a few. So few records to hunt through.

I actually came across a book that described what the immigrants did to travel east into Ontario. Once they were able to make it to Montreal they either had to go by land or by boat. And the book mentioned Durham boats. The page I posted happens to discribe the journey of one family, 8 years later than mine, who travelled to Cobourg just as mine did. Helps me understand how they travelled yet I doubt theres any records. I did see the S Pogue on the St. Lawrence Steamboat Company Passender List. Not sure if its them, but the dates are bang on comparing the info I have of their arrival and final residence to Cobourg Ontario before moving on. I wasn't able to find the 1828 list.

Glad to here all this information from both of you. Thanks

Stay Safe

Mike

Hi Peter: Yes, the document I found from the Leitrim Genealogy Centre via Roots Ireland is a fairly recent find (summer 2020), one which prompted me to start this message stream. I have known about the attempt to recreate the Public Records Office for some time; I'm not sure if this record was unearthed as part of that process? Because of that ongoing process, I tend to redo all of my searches for dead ends/roadblocks twice a year or so. I'm not sure if I can search/browse the 1821 Census by address, but I will try that and maybe we can all get a better idea of the families in Gortermone? Robyn.

My eyes were spinning after the documents going around and all of the repeating names. I decided to really look at the Land Petitions in Ontario and then I created a sort of family tree on a cork board to try and make sense of any/some/all of it.

Here is what I know from the documents:

Stuart Pogue and Jane (last name Stuart/Stewart maybe or maybe not)
- originally applied for land in Emily Township Dec 9, 1824 (Upper Canada Sundries) along with his son James (Emily is close to Ops, both now called Kawartha Lakes)
- in that document it says that they are from Carrigallen County of Leitrim and "arrived about six months ago"
- also says that "another son settled in the township of Emily" (I believe that this is John, see below)
- both Stuart and James appear to have moved on to Hamilton, or at least applied for land there Dec 7, 1825 at which time James is "unwell" and "has a wife and one child" (Stuart signs the petition as his father and agent)

James Pogue
- by Feb 4, 1833 James is asking for land in Ops and his petition says that he has a "large and young family" and that he served for 15 years in "Yeomanry of Ireland under the command of the Hon Sir John Godley and about seven years ago he emigrated to this country"
- Feb 23, 1839 he is asking for more tillable land in Ops and then asking for a change to Fenelon (Falls), also a part of Kawartha Lakes, on Mar 9, 1853

Elizabeth Pogue
- applies for land Feb 26, 1848
- petition states that "father Stuart Pogue emigrated to this country in the year 1824, and was located (granted?) by the Surveyor General for lot number one in the 10th Concession of Ops under payment of Fees"
- petition also states that Suart died "about fourteen years ago" (1834?), that there is another deceased sister and that Elizabeth's son is Charles Pogue (notably there is no mention of a husband, dead or alive)

So, my version of this part of the Pogue tree would have

Stuart Pogue and Jane with FOUR children (per his petition in 1825) - James, John, Elizabeth and another femle who died before 1848.
Son James Pogue (~1792-bef 1882, married 1822) and wife Elizabeth (~Jan 1800 in Ireland-Sept 8, 1882), only children I can identify (from Canada Censuses) are Ellen (b1840), David (b1842), Rachel (b1843). There was one born by 1825 (per land petition) and the 1833 petition said that he had a large family (undoubtedly more James' and Stuarts among them!)
Son John Pogue (~1793, married 1820, died in Emily June 10, 1850) and wife Susanna (born 1806 in Leitrim-Dec 20, 1874) had 2 or 3 children I can identify - Joseph (1831-1887) (not sure if he belongs), Margaret (1846), John (1848)
Daughter Elizabeth Pogue had a child Charles Pogue by 1848 (did she marry another of the many Pogues so that she kept her maiden name?)

I cannot find a Land Petition for John Pogue, which is odd. There is a Land Petition in Whitchurch (where my Strettons/Cookes ended up later in life, earlier they were right next door to Ops/Emily/Kawartha) for a Robert Pogue dated April 20, 1819. His petition states that ht is "Ntive of Ireland" and "emigrated on his own".

I have downloaded copies of all of the mentioned petitions if you are interested.

That's all I have for now! Robyn.