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I have found some possible baptisms for 2 of my ancestors at Holy Trinity in Waterford City, but there are several unusual notes and wordings that I can't decypher. Also, there only appears to be one sponsor - what would be the likely reason for this?

Attached is the image of the register - the entries are the 2 on February 15th please.

Many thanks.

Highland_ D

Monday 15th Jun 2020, 09:32PM

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  • I believe that the notations indicate that the children were both baptized [by this priest, anyway] well after their births, and may have been baptized before by someone else.  My Latin is not perfect, but here's what I tihink it says [note that the priest seems to have ignored the printed column headings in the register]:

    Luke, 4th year of age, sub conditione [see meaning below], [Parents] Robert Mitchel [I can't make out what's written right after Robert's name] & Mary Kearns, [Sponsors] Mary Purcell & Thomas English

    Mary, 1st year of age, sub conditione, above-stated parents [i.e., she had the same parents as Luke], [Sponsors] Ellen Baker & Thomas English

    Sub conditione is a Latin term meaning “under the condition".  I found this explanation for the term online:  “It may be encountered in Roman-Catholic baptismal records in cases when the midwife performed an emergency baptism.  If the child lived, the child would be baptized again by the priest, under the condition that he was able to receive the baptism."

     

    kevin45sfl

    Tuesday 16th Jun 2020, 05:40PM
  • Many thanks for your suggestions. I think that the girls were previously baptised in Garrison chapels soon after birth. Father was a soldier and non-catholic.

    I think that Thomas English is the priest as he appears on all lines, so only a female sponsor - possibly because the father was away in Crimea or not a Catholic?

     

     

     

    Highland_ D

    Friday 19th Jun 2020, 04:59PM
  • Yes, you're undoubtedly right about Thomas English being the priest.  I hadn't noticed his name in the other entries.  Most priests didn't insert their name by each entry, but I've seen it done often enough before.  I've also seen a number of cases where there was only one sponsor at a baptism.  Two was the norm, usually siblings, cousins, or other relatives of the parents, if available, but sometimes there may only have been one person available.  If this wasn't their hometown and he was about to be deployed elsewhere, they may have had to scramble to find people.

    Also, I see now that I confused Lucy with Luke.  I don't think I've ever seen the name Lucy (Luciam, in that context) in an Irish Catholic baptismal record before, so I just blithely read it as Luke (which would have been Lucam in that context).  Lucy may have been a name from the father's Protestant side of the family.  It wasn't all that common among Catholcs, at least in most areas.

    From what you've said, the interlineated word after Robert's name must be "militia", but I still can't read the other word, although it looks a bit like "oath".  Perhaps, if he was Protestant, he had to take an oath to raise the girls as Catholics.  Still, since the priest obviously liked using Latin (many were not so pedantic), I would have expected something in Latin about an oath..

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    kevin45sfl

    Saturday 20th Jun 2020, 05:53PM
  • Thanks for your further insights. At the original garrison chapel baptisms of the girls, their names were given as "Margaret Lucy" and "Mary Emma".  These names are important for me because they are almost certainly the first  2 children of the marriage, so if following the Irish and/ or Scottish naming conventions (I believe Robert was probably from Ayrshire, Scotland), could point me to the mothers of both parents. Their first known son was baptised in the same place 3 years later as "Robert Frederick" - Robert's father was definitely Robert and his mother was Mary, which does point to following of the naming conventions...

    Hence from your experience do you think that Lucy or Margaret would be the mother's mother's name???  I have the same problem with the mother's father, as the 2nd son was called "Charles Henry"!

    Thanks for your help.

    Highland_ D

    Sunday 21st Jun 2020, 10:08AM
  • Hard to say about the naming convention in this case.  It was observed most commonly in rural areas, and I'm not sure to what extent Protestants or Scots would have observed it.  In any case, this is the pattern normally followed:

    • First born son named after his father's father
    • Second born son named after his mother's father
    • Third born son named after his father
    • Fourth born son named after his father's oldest brother
    • Fifth born son named after his father's 2nd oldest brother or his mother's oldest brother
    • First born daughter named after her mother's mother
    • Second born daughter named after her father's mother
    • Third born daughter named after her mother
    • Fourth born daughter named after her mother's oldest sister
    • Fifth born daughter named after her mother's 2nd oldest sister or her father's oldest sister

    kevin45sfl

    Monday 22nd Jun 2020, 03:28PM

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