Edward Hinds Margaret Sanderson

Moira,

I am struggling a bit to verify the information you have provided.  I found the marriage of Patrick Smyth and Ellen McNamara on 27.4.1865 at the RC chapel in Ballyphilip, Portaferry. Patrick’s age makes him born c 1840.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1865/11571/8257269.pdf

There are several trees on Ancestry that list this family. Most seem to give Patrick’s place of birth and death as Waterford, though elsewhere in the trees it gives Newcastle, Co Down for both. And though the couple had a long list of children, I don’t see a Catherine. I also looked for a Patrick Smyth born in Waterford in 1840 living in Co Down in the 1901 & 1911 censuses but failed to find one.

I’d like to check this tree back stage by stage to ensure it’s accurate. So can you tell me where and when Elizabeth Augusta Smyth was born; where and when her parents (Henry & Catherine Smyth) were married, and where & when you think Catherine Smyth was born. That should enable me to try and research the family more easily.

Steve here from USA Salt Lake City have you tried RootsIreland. Ie. or Irish wills index?

Hi Elwyn

Thank you for your prompt response and offer to help in our search.

I can confirm that Patrick Snr and Ellen Smyth (formerly McNamara) were married 27th April 1865 at Ballyphillip. Incidentally, I have a birth certificate for Patrick Smyth born 24th July 1868 at Newcastle, Newtownards., son of Patrick Snr and Ellen Smyth.

To begin, my mother Elizabeth Augusta Smyth was both 20th Augusta 1909 in Portaferry. I have a copy of her birth certificate showing Henry Smyth and Catherine Smyth (Hynds) as the parents.  Catherine’s mother, Elizabeth Hynds is listed as the grandmother present at the birth.

From family information I have that Elizabeth was formerly Quayle and married Williams Hinds (Catherine’s father)

Henry and Catherine were married on 2nd March 1905 at St Patricks Catholic Church, Portaferry.  I don’t have dates of birth for either, but am fairly certain that they would have been born in or around Portaferry as Henry’s residence was given as Ballgalget, and Catherine’s as Knockinelder.

I hope this helps Elwyn and thank you again for your help.  If we can trace back to the correct line of Edward Hinds and Margaret Sanderson it would help tremendously.

Steve, thank you for your suggestion too J

Best wishes,

Moira

Moira,

I think you may have some information the wrong way round, which is why I was a bit confused. I also think that some of the very early information is wrong. I'll explain in due course. You say in your first post that Patrick Smyth & Ellen McNamara had a daughter Catherine (Cissie) Smyth who married Henry Smyth. In the second post you added the date of 2.3.1905. However the couple in that marriage are Henry Smith and Catherine Hinds. That Catherine’s father was William Hinds (deceased) who had been a farmer. That Catherine wasn’t therefore the daughter of Patrick Smyth & Ellen McNamara. Did you mean that Patrick & Ellen had a son Henry Smyth who married Catherine Hinds?

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1905/10151/5693352.pdf

Here’s that couple in the 1911 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Quintin/Knockinelder/241749/

(The names Henry & Harry are interchangeable in Ireland and the UK).

We know that Henry was from Newcastle townland. Here he is with his father and 2 siblings in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Quintin/Newcastle/1232558/

Patrick & 3 children in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Quintin/Newcastle/241837/

I can see the following children to Patrick Smith & Ellen McNamara

James 30.1.1866

Ellen 22.4.1867

Patrick 24.7.1868

William 10.3.1870

John 25.12.1871 (assumed to have died by 1879)

Mary 20.8.1873

Margaret 17.8.1875

Annie 4.5.1877

John 4.3.1879

Henry 20.2.1881

Eliza 16.8.1883

Patrick Smyth (b c 1840) died 26.9.1925. Probate abstract from the PRONI wills site:

Smyth Patrick of Newcastle near Portaferry county Down farmer and old age pensioner died 24 September 1925 Probate Belfast 28 July to John Dynes farmer. Effects £7.

The will itself should be in PRONI.

Daughter Margaret:

Smyth, Margaret of Newcastle Portaferry county Down spinster died 13 November 1959 at Ards Hospital Newtownards county Down Probate Belfast 18 January to Hugh Anderson merchant and John Smyth funeral undertaker. Effects £464 6s

Again the will itself should be in PRONI.

Though the pre 1901 Irish censuses were mostly destroyed, some fragments have survived. Those include some extracts from the 1841 and 1851 censuses. (They had been used for age verification purposes when people were applying post 1909, for old age pensions). In this particular case, a summary of the the 1841 census for the Smyth family in Newcastle has survived. The details are published in Josephine Mastersons Book Ireland 1841/1851 census abstracts (Northern Ireland). The extract gives the family in 1841 as follows:

Pat Smyth 49 head

Mary wife 44

Ann dau 9

Margaret dau 7

James son 5

Patrick, son 1

The document also records that in 1851 Ann’s age was 18, Margaret 16, and Patrick 9. James was not listed in 1851 so may have died.

Now that information means that Patrick Smyth senior was born c 1793 and his wife Mary c 1796. So Mary can’t be the daughter of Edward Hinds born c 1792 in Enniskillen, who married Margaret Sanderson. I think that initial aspect of your tree needs reviewing.

Newcastle near Portaferry is in Portaferry RC parish. Unfortunately their baptism and marriage records only start in 1843 so tracing backwards with certainty will be very difficult.

There’s a death registered in Newtownards on 7th June 1877 for a Patrick Smyth aged 84 which could be the Patrick born c 1793. The death certificate is not free to view yet. If you want to investigate it, you can view the original certificate on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate. 

Someone named Joyce Mason is named on Rosdavies Co Down site  as also researching this family. You might want to contact her:

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~rosdavies/genealogy/SURNAMES/S/SmythLW.htm

Brief description of Newcastle townland in 1836:

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~rosdavies/genealogy/PLACENAMES/N.htm

This looks to be Catherine Hinds in the 1901 census in Church St Portaferry, with her family.  I note that her father was a bootmaker on the census (farmer on her marriage certificate). I suspect she may just have promoted her father when she married.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ards_Upper/Church_Street/1232032/

And the widowed Elizabeth Hinds in 1911, still in Church St:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Portaferry/Church_Street/241364/

William Hynds & Elizabeth Quail were married on 1st July 1879 in Portaferry:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1879/11072/8051304.pdf

Daughter Catherine was born 30.12.1881 in Portaferry.

Hope this helps a bit.

Hi Elwyn,

thank you very much for your very detailed reply and research which is much appreciated.  I will go through it all carefully and will update my tree and contact Joyce Mason too as we have that name in our family tree as well. Thanks again, Moira