James Marion (1820-1895)

Tom:

Welcome to Ireland Reaching Out!

Baptismal records for Kilmovee start in 1854 which is too late for your purposes  https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0137

There is a good possibility that the surname of your ancestor could have been Moran. See 1855 Griffiths Valutaion head of household listing for Kilmovee civil parish.

https://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/mayo/kilmovee.htm

Hopefully, new DNA matches will help you pinpoint where in Mayo, your ancestors originate. McAndrew and Healey are not known Kilmovee surnames.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Roger McDonnell

Thank you, Roger, for your thoughtful response.  I did some digging on the sites you provided and believe I have a better connection to the 'Mannions' than to the 'Morans'.  The 1855 Griffiths Valuation shows two Mannions - Denis and John.  Both live about three miles from one another - https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lake+George,+NY+12845/@43.215768,-75.9893289,7.93z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89dfc01da0053e81:0x3be8fcb34fcf62d2!8m2!3d43.4261809!4d-73.7123408.  I then checked the 1824-25 Kilmovee Marriages and discovered a 13 Jan 1825 marriage between John Mannion and Catherine Regan, and a screen shot is attached.  As earlier mentioned, Regan is one of the potential DNA matches.  However, this gets confusing because the first conclusion is that this man is my James Marion's uncle.  However, James' oldest son was named John Ambrose Marion, so should this not be his father?  Either James was born in 1825, not 1820, or there was an out-of-wedlock birth would be the only answer.  James' Tombstone is very precise - 10 March 1820.  What am I missing?

Tom:

I would think that the John who was married in 1826 as you indicated was likely an uncle to James. Not sure which company you tested with but you may want to upload your DNA to a volunteer site called Genesis Gedmatch www.genesis.gedmatch.com   You will get additional matches from people who tested with other companies and also loaded their data to Genesis Gedmatch.

Roger

Figures in the column at side of page indicate degrees of relationship between groom and bride. 3rd degree and 4th degree. Degrees of consanguinity. They would have been cousins of some kind. They may have had to apply for a dispensation in view of the 3rd degree. My ancestors were married there and I was pleased to see that they were not related to each other before they married. A reason given by their son for leaving was "there was no one left to marry"; he may have meant,  no available young woman to whom he wasn't already related.

  Other possibilities for relationship of John to James could be older brother, cousin or father marrying for  2nd time. That's assuming there was a relationship between John and your James..

What is the connection with Healey?

Roger, thank you for suggesting Genesis Gedmatch; I had not heard of the site.  I will give it a go.

Maggie, on the right it appears to show "3 U 4", which you indicate that the couple are either 3rd or 4th cousins.  Is that correct?

As for the Healey's, it is more of a hunch.  The Healey's emigrated to the USA from England, and I understand the Healey and Marion families took the same wagon train to the Midwest, first settling in Wisconsin.  Three Marion's married three Healey's.  Both families then proceeded to farm near Hope, Minnesota in the mid- to late-1800s.  Being so close, I suspect that they knew one another before coming to the USA.  Just a hunch.

The McAndrew connection to closer,  I was told that my Grandfather, John Marion, was a cousin to the McAndrews.  I was never told how they connected.  Again, the McAndrews too lived in the same area in Minnesota.  My guess was that their family connection began in Ireland rather than the USA.

As for my hunches, I have not found any Healey's or McAndrews.

Tom 

You're probably correct about the cousin relationship. They may have been 3rd cousins one way and 4th cousins by another line. Or the relationships were so complex the priest judged them to be either 3rd or 4th cousins.  Looking at the register again, I can see "Kindred" written at top of column on 1st page. It's not clear on some other pages.  When I first looked at that marriage register for my own family I initially assumed the figures to be degrees of consanguinity but a few couples have the number 2 in the column. Second degree consanguinity is sibling relationship according to explanation on website  "Canon Law Made Easy  -   Can Cousins Marry in Church?" so the relationships of those grooms and brides can't have been in the  second degree. It was the symbol for degree which threw me. I wish the priest had kept all his notes or sketched-out family trees or whatever he used to calculate relationships. He could have stuck it in the register. He stuck other scraps of paper in. Perhaps he just asked an elderly or informed parishioner and then worked it out in his head. Marrying a second cousin seems to have been common for members of Caulfield and Frain families (2 in Feb.1832, and in 1836).

There were plenty of Healey people in Swinford district and other places. 

Some information about consanguinity and marriage dispensations.

www.ottawavalleyirish.com/2011/08/marital-dispensations.html 

"of the third to the third degree of consanguinity means that both bride and groom were separated from a common ancestor by 3 generations i.e. that they shared a common great-grandparent ... " This is a geneaolgy website and  has other topics e.g. conditional baptism.

Article and Table of Consanguinity in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm 

There's an explanation and worksheet for tracing dispensations of consanguinity on Dan McDonald's site. (Link from the Ottawa Valley page)

Affinity was another bar to marriage and would have required a dispensation.

The point is made that priests didn't always record degree of consanguinity or affinity correctly.

If information on the Ottawa Valley site is correct it would mean that John was 3 degrees separated from a common ancestor (great-grandparent) and Catherine was 4 degrees separated from a common ancestor (great-great-grandparent). I calculate that John and a parent of Catherine were 3rd cousins.  In that case, John and Catherine were 3rd cousins-once-removed. (I may be wrong). 

My ancestor, John J. Maren  b.1850, lived in Archbald pennsylvania, our first generation in my fathers hometown. He was raised in the home of Mary (nee Dougher) and Anthony McLoughlin. I am trying to find record of his birth father. I do know that a brother, Patrick Maren, arrived in the states in 1887 and was also living in archbald at the time of his death in a mining accident in 1898. I have been able to DNA match a descendent of his to confirm these two individuals were indeed brothers although they were raised separately.  I think they are from Mayo, possibly Killala area as a lot of the people who landed in Archbald were from there. The census indicated he was born in Pennsylvania but that his parents were born in Ireland. Patrick's descendent that i was in contact with told a family story that john and patricks father never emmigrated as he was hung for stealing a sheep but I could not confirm this. The family name is now Marion, but in Archbald it is still pronounced the way it must have been spoken, which is Maren. Even after DNA matching through ancestry, the only "cousins" i share a surname with are from recent generations. John married a Mcandrew.  Patrick was married to Annie, who's family name was also Marion.  I am posting here, because I am hoping to learn if there are connections with our Marions. Thanks for any insight.

R. Marion

Hello Rosaleen, thanks for reaching out.  My mother was a Marion and her Gr-grandparents were James & Nancy Ann (Owens) Marion / Marren.  James (1820-1895) was from Doocastle, Kilturra Civil Parish, Co. Mayo, and Nancy (1837-1915) was from just east of Swinford, Co. Mayo.  DNA matches show several Marrens as good matches.  I also received a message indicating another DNA match in the Kilmovee area.  Those are two strong areas for you to search.

I am also intriqued by your comment about John Maren marrying a McAndrew.  My Marion's eventually settled in the Steele Co., MN area, first farming and then moving to Owatonna, Steele Co., MN.  Growing up, we heard that our Grandfather, John Mark Marion, was a cousin to John H. E. McAndrews (1884-1970).  John H.E.'s Father was Michael A. McAndrews (1842-1920).  The two families lived one block from each other in Owatonna and I know they were close.  However, I cannot find out how they were cousins.  Perhaps your Maren / McAndrew couple may be the answer.

I am unaware of any relative living in PA.

If you have access, you may view my various trees to see if you find a closer relationship.  Good luck and let me know how you do,

Tom Mahoney 

Thank you Tom. I looked on the  ancestry DNA  map and there are no indications that our Marrens went much further west than Wisconsin.  all of my DNA connections to Marion/maren are from John and his brother patrick. there are no dna "cousins" by that name from generations prior. almost as if the marens renamed as of my great grandfather. nothing is closer although there are a few Mayhorns and Morans. I think it is interesting though that John went by Maren as well as patrick who only arrived in the usa 35 years after John. I can only assume that whatever the name was, it SOUNDED like maren. He married Ann Mcandrew in 1872. Her parents Patrick and Ann were the first generation in the states. You mentioned the name ambrose. That is a very strong name in our family. My grandfather was ambrose maren and the name shows up frequently.  I am active on ancestry .com and also 23and me. it would be great to take a look at your trees and i appreciate the information. regards, Rosaleen

Rosaleen, your mention of Ambrose in your family, and a marriage to a McAndrew, seems to be a strong connection to my Marion's.  My Ancestry.com name is "tjmahoney_1".  I have several family trees: 1) a Mahoney-Marion tree, 2) a Marion tree that I tend to focus more on the Marion's, and 3) a McAndrew tree.  If you cannot access the information, share your email and I will add you to the list.  Tom