Joyce/Keane from Liscarney

Hello Dorothy,

Your Henry is buried in a single plot and the headstone and other arrangements appear to have been done by a Charles O’Malley. Whilst the 1901 census indicates one Joyce household in the townland, by 1911 there is the emergence of a second , John and Julia who are slightly older than your Henry. It would not be unreasonable to suggest this may be an older brother of Henry.

Of interest also there is a second family plot with a modern headstone for a John Joyce of Liscarney died Nov 8th 1996 aged 84 and his wife Bridie Joyce died Nov 21 1991 aged 74 years. There is also an older upright cross headstone with a three tiered base with inscriptions which I cannot make out but would require someone to get up close and personal or take a series of photographs for an image produced using Photogrammetry to decipher the inscription.

This said it would appear the family plot as it is the older of the two in the cemetery is the one where you are most likely to find the missing burials. The single plot is later and this may be down to a family issue or problem that he was not buried with his parents.

As for the earlier generations you may wish to bide your time as the National Library of Ireland microfilmed records are due to go online July 8th which run up to 1880 . Details :- http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm?fuseaction=showidrecords&CityCounty=Mayo&parish=Aughagower&churchid=1037

Hope this helps in some small way.

Dorothy:

I looked for a civil marriage index record and a church record in Aghagower and the only record I found on both sources was an 1885 marriage between Thomas Joyce and Bridget Keane. Is this too late? Was Henry the oldest child? I agree with P McG that you should review the Aghagower register when it becomes available on the July 8th on the NLI site. Records start in 1828. I looked for a civil death index record for Thomas and did not find one before 1901 that made sense. I saw a couple possible index records for Bridget, one is displayed below.

Roger McDonnell

Date of Marriage: 14-Feb-1885
Parish / District: Aghagower RC parish County: Co. Mayo
Husband Wife
Name: Thomas Joyce Bridget Keane
Address:
Denomination: Roman Catholic Roman Catholic

First name(s) Bridget
Last name Joyce
Birth year 1853
Age at death 84
Registered year 1937
Registered quarter/year Jul - Sep 1937
Registration district Westport
Volume 4
Page 245

Hello Pat,

Thank you so much for your response.  That Henry Joyce is indeed my Great Uncle and the grave marker installed by Charles O'Malley, who is now a friend of mine, having met him, his lovely wife as well as several other O'Malleys.  The remains of my Grandfather's childhood home is on O'Malley land and they have graciously taken me there to see it on two occassions, as well as taken me to view the grave marker in Aghagower cemetery.  Charles knew both of my Great Uncles, Henry and Patrick, and was able to tell me a few stories that I treasure.  On my visit in 2011, I also met a lovely woman in her late 80's in Westport, by the last name of McDonough (spelling ?), who told me she knew both Henry and Patrick and that they made lovely Moses baskets.  

I don't think the John, of the John and Julia Joyces, is a sibling relation to my Joyces of that era, as my Grandfather John Joyce, emigrated in 1907, lived, worked, and died in Chicago.  The older upright cross you are referring to, interests me much.  Charles O'Malley had told me back in 2011 that he could not find Patrick's grave (Henry's brother), but that work is still be done to identify graves.  I will defintely look into that cross and hopefully determine if perhaps, Patrick, as well as his parents, Thomas and Bridget might be laid to rest there. 

I'm very excited about the other records coming available in July.  Thanks so much for the link and for taking the time to help me.  Every bit of the puzzle is a wonderful find.  I'm so appreciative.

Dorothy

Hello Roger,

Thank you so much for the information.  That marriage of Thomas Joyce and Bridget Keane of 14 Feb 1885 is indeed my Great Grandparents.  As far as I know, there were only 3 brothers from this union, Henry (born 1886),  John (born 1887 - my Grandfather, who emigrated to Chicago in 1907), and Patrick (born 1888 or 1889).  I was told that my Grandfather John, was sent to live with his maternal Grandmother Keane after his mother Bridget Keane Joyce lost her husband and a set of triplets.  I am assuming the triplets were never born.  This is why my Grandfather John Joyce is listed on the 1901 Census as living with the Keane family in Knappagh Beg, though I do not know in what year he was sent to live there. 

The death information you sent regarding Bridget Keane Joyce seems right to me.  I do have a possible Church Baptism Records from Roots Ireland for Bridget Keane with a birthdate of 22 Nov 1857, with John Keane as the Father and Bridget Walsh as the mother.  John Keane was listed as Bridget's father on the marriage document.  The Sponsors on this Baptism Record show a Michael Grimes and Mary Walsh, both surnames I have seen throughout documents related to my Joyces.  The birthdate discrepancy between the Baptism Record I found on Roots Ireland and the death information you found for Bridget Keane Joyce seems not unusual to me. In the 1901 census she is listed as 40 years of age; in the 1911 census she is listed as 54 years of age.   

Thank you so much for your help.  I find all of this so fascinating and hope to keep filling in pieces to my family puzzle.  So looking forward to the July 8th unveiling of the new records. 

Dorothy

Dorothy:

There is also another civil death index record with a year of birth closed to 1857. You would need to get copies of the originals from the GRO. They cost around 4 euros each. If you are interested let me know and I can forward instructions.

I also went back and looked closer at the death index records for Thomas. If he was 4-5 years younger than Bridget there is an 1892 civil death index record which might be correct.

Roger

First name(s) Bridget
Last name Joyce
Birth year 1858
Age at death 86
Registered year 1944
Registered quarter/year Jan - Mar 1944
Registration district Westport
Volume 4
Page 314

First name(s) Thomas
Last name Joyce
Birth year 1802
Age at death 90
Registered year 1892
Registered quarter/year Jan - Mar 1892
Registration district Westport
Volume 4
Page 396

Pat McGreal:

I assume your are my associate from the Mayo Facebook page.

Welcome to Ireland XO!

Roger

Thank you again, Roger.  Yes, I would like information on how to order documents from GRO (not sure what it stands for - Government Registration Office, perhaps?).  That additional Bridget Joyce information looks possible also. 

The Thomas Joyce information though seems doubtful.  With his birthdate of 1802, that would make him about 50 years older than Bridget - not impossible, but dubious.   My Thomas Joyce would've died sometime between 1887 (when son Patrick was concieved) and 1901 (when Bridget is documented on the 1901 Census as widowed), which fits the death date, but the 50 year birth age gap doesn't sound right.  Or is that birth year for Thomas a typo? 

Can you tell me what website you are getting your information.  I just joined Roots Ireland this week and I have an Ancestry.com subscription also and haven't found what you have found.  Probably user-error but maybe there's a better website I can use.

Thanks again for your help.

Dorothy

Dorothy:

General Register Office.

I copied and pasted the wrong 1892 death index record for Thomas Joyce--sorry. See below.

I'm using www.findmypast.ie which is a subscription site. Roots has some civil records but likely not after 1900 and not for all counties. You can also look at www.irishgenealogy.ie which is a free Irish government site which has a lot of civil index records but not as late as Find My Past which goes to 1958.

To get a copy of a record go to this link
https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Apply-for-Certificates.aspx

Print out the appropriate form in your case death. Fill out the form to the best of your ability and include info from the index record quarter/year of death, registration district and volume and page number. Make sure you only ask for a copy. You will have to mail the request to GRO in Co. Roscommon (address provide when your print the form). You can ask GRO to e-mail the copy back to you. I always provide my credit card number and have not had an issues.

Questions?

Roger

First name(s) Thomas
Last name Joyce
Birth year 1862
Age at death 30
Registered year 1892
Registered quarter/year Jan - Mar 1892
Registration district Westport
Volume 4
Page 397

Hello Roger,

Indeed I am.

Gave up posting to FB for the new year. And gave it up for lent too !!

May return for the 4th July in anticipation of the release on the 8th of the Parish Registers. All sorts of interesting stuff should emerge.

Just noticed ticking box for notifications - STOPS - notifications. Ah well that explains it.

Hello Dorothy,

I should have posted the images I was referring to in my previous comments :-

Henry - http://www.irishgraveyards.ie/plot.php?plotno=68&yardid=119&section=New…

Liscarney Joyce Family plot - http://www.irishgraveyards.ie/plot.php?plotno=L6%20P10&yardid=119&secti…

As you are aware the burial ground at Aughagower is split onto four sites and the site I have linked has a graveyard map to assist in the location.

From the Griffith Valuation there appear to be 3 households in Liscarney (3 b,c,and d) which would suggest they are all of the same family group though determining their relationships would require refernce to parish registers, bring on the 8th July.

Determing what online is illegible from the headstone may unlock the issue at hand.

Good luck.

Hi Roger,

Don't mean to bother you so much, but since you've submitted applications before, maybe you can tell me about Section 2:  which asks "Civil Status" - does that mean, married, single, widow?  That's what I'm thinking but don't want to assume. 

Thanks for all the additional information, also.  I think this latest Thomas Joyce is the one.  I'm going to order it and the Bridget Joyce with a birthdate in 1858.  I'm hoping these certificates will display additional information that I can use in my search. 

Also, I'm debating which DNA test to take.  Have narrowed it down between Ancestry.com and 23&Me.  Any recommendation?

Dorothy

Dorothy:

I'm always puzzled by that entry. I think married, single, widow makes sense.

Just so your know a death record has the location where the deceased passed which since most people died at home, would be the townland where they lived. The date of death and cause of death are shown plus a year of birth provided by the informant which is always tricky since the deceased may not have provided an accurate year to family members. The name of the informant is shown and sometimes the relationship of the informant to the deceased.

I have had my DNA tested by Family Tree and Ancestry and so far, I lean towards Family Tree. Family Tree provides more analytical tools compared to Ancestry.

Once you decided on the company and get your results, it is also a good idea to upload your data to a site called Gedmatch www.gedmatch.com Gedmatch is a volunteer run site which allows people who test with any of the three companies to load their data and see if they match someone who tested with one of the other two companies and who loaded their data to Gedmatch.

Roger

Thanks so much, Pat.  The pictures are great.  The two times I visited Henry's grave, it was raining cats and dogs, so it's nice to see it clearly.   I'm still trying to interpret information from Griffith's Valuation.  It's a rather confusing system to me.  Can't seem to pinpoint a specific date that the valuation was conducted, other than a range of years.   Been reading up on it, so hope it becomes more clear in my mind. 

Again, I thank you for the assistance.

Dorothy

Hello Dorothy,

Some early baptism details

1829 Winny of Walter and Bridget Joyce October 10 Liscarney

1843 John  of Henry and Mary Joyce May14 Liscarney

1848 Catherine of Richard and Anne Joyce February 28 Liscarney

Poss 2nd marriage : 1856 Richard Joyce to Honoria McEvily August 11 Cuslough

1857 John of Richard and Honoria Joyce May 30 Liscarney

1859 James of Richard and Honor Joyce October 2 Liscarney

Walter would appear to be the oldest member in your tree and the remainder are likely to be his children. The problem with many of the parish records which will become available is there will be ineligible and missing pages. When searching the parish records your eye should also be tuned into looking at the names of sponsors and witnesses of non Joyce marriages, as these responsibilities were often gifted to other family members who may be named Joyce, especially where the connection/evidence may be ineligible or lost.

The Valuation would have been carried out within a year of its publication in 1855

If you click on the link http://bit.ly/1FnQkBE Liscarney is in the top left of screen. Zoom in and the parcel of land as you will see, 3 is unfortunately not parcelled up into 3 a,b,c or d. It is difficult to determine how the 83 acres was apportioned between the four tenants beyond the proportion of rent paid, but as two-thirds of the land looks extremely marginal they would appear to have only a small holding each of productive land. There is a group of five buildings which is most probably the location of Walter’s home and that of Harry/Henry  and Patrick.

An article on the valuation http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/GRIFFITH/Griffiths.PDF may be of some help in explaining the details. Coincidentally this is from a web site Roger is closely linked with.

Thanks for the additional info, Pat.  Looks like I'll have plenty of names for hunting material when the parish records come on line.  I have a dry-erase board that I'm going to plug in some names to see how they fit, by generation. 

That article on Griffiths Valuation is great.  I've printed it out as it is such a great reference.  I've tried getting the map to show several times in the past and recently and still cannot get it to open with any clarity; I've used both my PC and my mini-Ipad and no luck.  I get the squares, but not anything that will define what is inside the squares.  Even the link you were kind enough to send, will not open correctly.  I'm going out of town for a week so will try it on my friend's computer when I get there. 

Thanks so much.  This website has been very helpful, and I so appreciate the assistance.

Dorothy

Hi, I'm Andrew Joyce and lived in Liscarney from 1947 - 1965 and lived with John and Bridie Joyce and visited them both regularly when I left home.   The grave stone left of John and Bridie's is my grandfathers, John Joyce, and his wife Julia Joyce.  His son William (Willie) is also buried with them.  He died when he was 19 years old.  Both Pat and Henry visited our house regularly.  Pat was very outgoing and came to see us every Sunday but Henry was more homely and did not visit as often.  Both died in County Home Hospital in  Castlebar.  Even though we are both 'Joyce's' the families are not related.  My cousin Willie still lives in Liscarney.  I also knew Charles O'Malley very well as I went to school with him.  If you wish to know any further information please post a reply.

Hi Andrew,

I apologize for not returning your message.  I had misplaced my password for the website.  Thanks so much for responding to my post.  I'm thrilled to have found that you knew my Great Uncles Pat and Henry Joyce.  Any information that you have about them is welcome.  I still have not been able to determine when or where their parents (Thomas and Bridget) died and which cemetery they are buried.  I did visit Henry's grave in Aghagower Cemetery on two occasions when I was visiting.  I wish that I had a picture of Patrick or Henry.  It just seems sad to me that my Joyce family name in Ireland died when they died.  Their brother, my Grandfather, John Joyce, had 5 children after emigrating to Chicago, one of whom was my dear Dad, who then had 10 children (I'm #6).  I'm grateful for the information that they both died in the County Home Hospital in Castlebar.  I believe I might be able to get a copy of their death certificates with that information.  Any other information that you could offer regarding Patrick and Henry is appreciated.  I am trying to keep a genealogy history for the coming generations, so even stories or thoughts are appreciated.  I know Henry died in 1974, but only heard that Patrick died within a few years of Henry's death.  Still unable to locate his grave.  I've been told Patrick and Henry may have been buried in the same grave, but there is no record so far.  Again my thanks for any additional information that you can pass forward.  Wonderful to have contact with you despite being from different Joyce families.  I hope to visit Ireland again this year, as seems it has become quite an addiction for me.  Thanks Andrew and hope to hear from you again. 

Best Regards,

Dorothy Joyce 

Hi Dorothy, thanks for your reply. I believe your grandfather, John Joyce, was raised in an area called Ballinlough situated between Lankill and Knappabeg. 

Pat told me he had a brother who went to America but he never heard from him again.  When Pat was young he used to go to Scotland potato picking.  He would walk from Liscarney to Dublin to catch the boat and then walk home again once the season was over (165 miles each way)!!!!!

I believe Pat and Henry willed their small holding to Charles O'Malley in return for being looked after in their old age.  

As for me my grandmother had five sisters which settled in Chicago. Their maiden name was Forkin and were from Curry in Co. Sligo.  And three of my mothers sisters also settled in Chicago.  Their maiden was  Breheny and were from Charlestown, Co. Mayo.  Their married surnames were Miers, Glynn and Johnson.  Bruce Johnson is still alive and was an officer in the Chicago police.  I also have 13 first cousins there as well so we may have a lot in common!  I would love to hear from you sometime but for now good bye - Andrew.

Hi Andrew - I was getting ready to post something when I just saw your reply to my post in March 2016. I am terribly sorry for not having replied earlier but I must have missed the notice that there was a reply. A thousand pardons, please.   Your last post was very interesting, Andrew.  I did know a Chicago Police Officer by the name, Bruce Johnson.  It might be the same one. I mostly knew officers from the Southside of Chicago where I was based.  I retired from CPD as a lieutenant in 2007, following my Grandfather John Joyce’s footsteps.  Again I apologize for not having replied when you sent your last comment.

Dorothy Joyce  

ASSISTANCE REQUESTED PLEASE  

I am looking for guidance on a particular entry on the NLI Parish Baptism Records for Aghagower in May 1859. The 3rd entry on the left side could very well be the birth record of my Great Grandfather Thomas Joyce. The first name is illegible to me even after my attempts at enhancement. It is for May 1859 from Liscarney, born to Henry and Mary Joyce, sponsors not quite readable other than the last name of Duffy. Someone on the Mayo Genealogy website was kind enough to give me the birthdates of the other children of Henry and Mary but she was also unable to read the name on the entry that I posted. She found them on Roots Ireland. Unfortunately, Thomas was not on Roots Ireland, perhaps because this entry is so hard to read.

My question is, if unable to verify that this entry is indeed Thomas, would there be another option to verify, such as actually viewing the register in person when I next visit Ireland in September.  Any guidance from Ireland Reaching Out would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. 

Dorothy Joyce

Hi Dorothy!

There is not enough there for me to say that the name was Thomas. I think the priest's pen was running out of ink. The sponsors look like Austin Hoban and Rose Duffy but that is not your main concern.  

I would ask the parish if you could view the actual register when you come over. The NLI microfilmed the registers in the early 1950s and the microfilm was digitized a few years ago. Hopefully, the register is still in somewhat decent condition.

Have a great trip!

Roger

Thank you, Roger, I will let the parish priest know of my request to view the record. I appreciate your help. 

Dorothy