Flanagan

Patricia,

1864 is when statutory birth & death registration began as well as RC marriages. Prior to that year you need to rely on church records, where they exist.

Dungourney is in the RC parish of Imogeela. Their baptism and marriage records start in 1835. Their records to 1899 are on-line on the rootsireland site (subscription).  You could also search this site, which is free:

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/

Alternatively you could wait till July when the National Library in Dublin intends to put them on-line free.

Regarding the spelling of the surname, accurate spelling was not something that was considered important in Ireland in the 1800s and often varies from document to document. Sometimes because the family were illiterate and so it was up to the official recording the information to decide how to spell it, and sometimes because the family themselves weren?t that bothered how it was spelled. Expect it to vary in Irish records, is my advice.

Elwyn

Elwyn,

Thank you for the leads and a better understanding of the potential RC parish of imogeela, Dungourney.  It was difficult to keep up with the changing names of the towns, counties and peoples here in the USA and now to be faced with learning the same about Ireland!  All leads are greatly appreciated!  The free site does have potential Flanagan's but the first few tries didn't hit the exact family and I don't understand if Cork & Ross means the same RC parish.  

Again, THANK YOU!

Patty

Patty, 

Cork & Ross is a diocese. So that?s a group of parishes (under the supervision of a bishop). It?s to the west of Cork city. It does not include Imogeela. Imogeela is in the diocese of Cloyne to the east of Cork City.

Here?s a link to a site which lists all the RC parishes in Ireland, so you can see where they are. Just to make things a bit more interesting, RC parish boundaries often don?t match the nearby civil boundaries (they are generally bigger) and often have different names too, as in the case of Imogeela.  There is an option to see which civil parishes, and which townlands, are within each RC parish to you can cross check that way.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/

Elwyn

Patricia:

I went into Roots and was not able to find a baptismal record for Michael Flanagan (plus variants) for the period around 1843 with a father named Owen or any Michael Flanagans regardless of the fathers name in Imogeela RC church.

As Elwyn mentioned, wait until July 8th or whenever you can get in to search the Imogeela register. The records start somewhere between 1833-1835 so the older children will not be there. (There will be tremendous interest in the NLI rollout of the registers and I'm expecting very slow response time for the initial period).

Roger McDonnell

Elwyn,

I've spent time with the maps.  I didn't find it helpful because the town and church aren't on the same map.  I did find a picture of the church.  I did not find any graves recorded in http://www.findagrave.com/  I don't understand the Catholic Church structure.  Oddly, my family is generally buried in the cemetery of the original relative, Owen without regard for not attending that particular Catholic Church any longer. 

I'll Google Earth the Dungourney area later today - hoping to make a bit more sense of the lay of the land.  The population was not particularily large back in the early 1800's so I thought it would be a bit easier than this...

I did get a subscription to www.rootsireland.ie  There weren't many records and certainly not enough information to be useful.  I'll be trying to find Callahan's and Murphy's next.   I do see where Cork is not really onlne yet.  

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/  they have Flanagan records but so far nothing in the Imogeela Parish.   Same goes for Ancestry.com 

I've spent time researching anicent history on the Flanagan's.  I ran into this Irish naming convention- which would have been very helpful 3 months ago although admittedly you need the records of all births where a name was recorded.  It was frustrating to have everyone being named the with same first names!    I was fortunate enough to have 4 generations living in the same house for 20-30 years.  But understanding this naming convention mught get me back another generation as soon as I can get records that are real documents and not just indexes etc....

For sons

The 1st son was named after the father's father. 
The 2nd son was named after the mother's father. 
The 3rd son was named after the father. 
The 4th son was named after the father's eldest brother. 
The 5th son was named after the mother's eldest brother.

For daughters 
The 1st daughter was named after the mother's mother. 
The 2nd daughter was named after the father's mother. 
The 3rd daughter was named after the mother. 
The 4th daughter was named after the mother's eldest sister. 
The 5th daughter was named after the father's eldest sister.

Thank you for your help,

Patty

Patty,

I agree with you that people are not necessarily buried in the church they attended. Where they have a family plot and have moved, they often go back to the old plot. In some places the Church of Ireland and RC church share the same graveyard so you get RC families in a Church of Ireland graveyard. And so on. To complicate matters further the RC church generally doesn?t keep burial records, and so if there?s no gravestone you may not be able to establish where someone is buried. (The most frustrating ones are the gravestones that simply say ?Flanagan? with no additional information).

Regarding the structure of the Catholic church, I assume you are referring to the different parish names and boundaries. The civil authorities set up the basic parish system. The Church of Ireland used those names and boundaries. The RC church however decided that those arrangements did not suit their needs and therefore used different names and boundaries. It?s confusing but that?s how it is. So in your particular case, the civil parish that your family apparently came from is Dungourney, and if searching certain records eg Griffiths Valuation, you would rely on that. But when you need RC records, then it?s Imogeela you are searching for. No easy way around it.

To add a little further confusion you probably need to know that the civil parish of Dungourney comprises about 25 townlands and the towns of Dungourney and Clonmult. Dungourney town is in the townland of the same name. So when Katherine Murphy?s place of birth is recorded as Dungourney, there?s no certain way of knowing whether that was the town, the townland or the parish. Could be any of them.

Griffiths Valuation for 1853 lists 5 Murphy households in Dungourney civil parish. Only one Patrick Murphy though.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

That fits with your information. He had plot 25 in Dungourney town, which was a house and yard.

Dungourney is a mainly agricultural area. 303 acres.  In 1901 there were about 20 occupied households in it, with a total of 88 occupants. See:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Dungourney/Dungourney/

No Murphy households in Dungourney in 1901. You can check the valuation records in the Valuation Office in Dublin to see how long Patrick stayed in Dungourney, and who replaced him.

The naming pattern is certainly helpful but there are hazards to be aware of.  Apart from the fact that not all families followed it, there are lots of things that can upset it. Common ones that I have encountered are:

1. when the father and either of the grandparents have the same name. So you obviously can?t have two or even three sons all with the same name, so a different name must be used instead;
2. if a child dies young, then it was common practice to re-use the name for the next birth. And if you don?t know about the death, your analysis of who they were named after could be completely wrong;
3. Or if a close relative had just died and their name was used out of respect.
4. I have also noticed that, in this part of Ireland anyway, many families liked to name the odd child after the local Minister/Priest, schoolteacher or a relative with no children of their own.
5. Sometimes people were christened with one name, but went by a different one (and would appear in censuses and other records by that alternative name).

So for all these reasons, whilst tradition says, for example, that the 4th son was named after the father's eldest brother, it isn?t always so.

Elwyn

Elwyn,

Very big learning curve!  I'd managed to pick up that record on Patrick Murphy a few days ago.  I suspect I can't say for certain that this is the family but it is a lead.  I'll be looking at all those Murphy families.

I tried more of the first names: Hugh, John, Eugene, Daniel but didn't come up with a Flanagan in Cork, Parish of Dungourney in griffin valuation.  I missed searching Jeremiah, James...all these first names are common to the Callahan's, too. 

When I get to see Church records, I hope I remember that Owen's son Owen's wife Bridget (b1841) had two sets of twins.  I haven't uncovered her maiden name yet.  I haven't convinced my cousin to check at St Mary's Church in Portland yet and the church burnt down once so I don't know if there are records any longer. If I ever find her maiden name, her grandmother might have had twins, too.  I did see where if a baby died they'd rename the next baby the same name.  That's was over in the Scovill (Sovelle, Scoville, Escoville)  and Lord ancestor lines.

I had seen that the population of Dungourney wasn't large.  Also, here in America, they (Callahan, Flanagan, Murphy's) all worked in a Brownstone Quarry.  According to what I read the area in Dungourney is agricultural as you point out, however it said there is (or was) a quarry in Dungourney. The stone appeared to be the same type, to me.  Does that help point to a specific town, townland or parish?  

Again, the Flanagan/Callahan's owned property here as early as 1860-4.  They had to have had money.  

Thanks for helping me learn what I'm going to need to know to make any headway in Ireland.

Patty 

Griffiths Valuation is not a census. It just lists heads of household. So wives, children, servants etc. are not listed. Likewise if you are lodging with someone or sharing  a house, only the head is listed. Poorer agricultural labourers whose homes were of too low a value were omitted, as were people on church land. There are numerous other reasons. So it wouldn?t be too surprising that you can?t find some of the other people you are looking for.

Re the quarry in Dungourney, I am afraid I don?t know the area that well. (I live at the other end of Ireland). Perhaps someone living locally will see this and advise. Otherwise, you could try having a look at the Griffiths maps of the area to see if you can see one shown there. Or if you go through each of the 25 or so townlands in the parish looking at the occupants on Griffiths, you may see a quarry listed. (Railways, churches, schools, bits of bog, quarries etc usually get listed).

Thank you

Hi Patricia,

As you know Dungourney is part of Imogeela parish which includes the villages of Castlemartyr, Mogeely , Dungourney and Clonmult,

There are churches in the 4 villages with Graveyards in the latter 3.

The graveyard in Dungourney i do not know anything about or how big it is. It is a very old one and no longer in use as far as i know. There are a lot of people from Dungourney buried in the Mogeely graveyardand one which might be of interest. It reads

In Memory of

our dear mother

Mrs. Margaret Meaney

Died 2 Feb.1900 aged 49 years

and of her father

Patrick Murphy

died 15 Sept. 1905 aged 89 years

Mary Cronin died Nov. 1st 1935 aged 28years

Ellen M. Cronin died  Dec. 29 1941 

There is no townland recorded so it may not be of any use but the dates are reasonably close.

A photo copy of the death certificate which you can get from the General Registars Office would give you the address of the Patrick Murphy.

There is 1 Flanagan gravestone which is too early. It reads erected 

by James Flanagan in mem. of his Brother

Laurence Flanagan who Dept. this life June 6th 1827 aged 65

Also his sister Ellen Flanagan who died April 10th 1828 aged 40.

Again no townland reference.

The only Flanagan in Clonmult is one erected by 

Michael Lynch of Kilcounty in mem. of his beloved wife

Johanah Lyncy alias Flanagan who Dept. this 

life Nov.5th 1835 aged 40 years.

KIlcounty is in KIlleagh parish but is quite close to Dungourney.

There is a graveyard in Dangan Donovan which is very close to Dungourney but is also part of Killeagh parish. There are no Flanagan stones there.

Not sure if any of this is of any use to you but you are at the start of the records for Imogeela parish.

Regards for now. Anne. 

Hi Anne,

Thank you for this information.  I’m not certain yet as to how or if it is our family but I bet it is.  Therefore; very exciting!  Additionally, mentioning the Register Office got me to search for them and I found this site: http://timeline.ie/general-register-office/ which seems interesting.

As to any of the dates you discovered being too early, they’re not. Owen Flanagan (b1799) married to Johanna (b1798) and immigrated prior to 1850 as daughter Mary (b1826) married Timothy Callahan (b1832) in July 8, 1854 in Portland (USA).  Johanna may have had 12 children.  5 made it to adulthood and they are noted as born in Ireland: Owen (b1832), John (b1836), Jeremiah (1840) and Michael (1843).  John married Catherine Murphy (b1844) and was the daughter of Patrick Murphy (1822) and Bridget (b1824).  Bridget may have been a Mc Carthy but I’m not sure.

So in the case of our family, nearly all in Ireland dates are before the civil registrations began. 

Again, thank you for adding to my understanding of how to uncover my Irish relatives and thank you for this concrete information on the graves potential relatives!  Patty