GIBSON ANCESTORS-Co Longford 1800's

Did the 1855 Estate Papers reference you located for that possible Thomas and George Gibson mention a townland and parish ?

Knowing the location would help check if parish records might be available for that part of the county. I had a look at Griffith's Valuation which dates from around 1854 for Co. Longford and the Gibson names appearing are Charles, Jeremiah and Samuel, and George, although George seems to be deceased as he's referred to as 'Reps of George Gibson' (representatives of) as immediate lessor for several properties in Edgeworthstown.

Just to note that marriage certs give the current addresses for the bride and groom rather than address of their fathers. An address at Lombard Street, Dublin City is recorded on the St. Marks CofI register for both William and Frances. The 1901 & 1911 census returns however show that William states he was born Co. Longford.

Do you have marriage or death certs for Alex or Marcella ?

US versions of these often give names of parents which might help the search for the correct Gibson family...

Hello Shane, On the LH King Harman tenants list it said "denomination" for the place heading so I guess that means the parish or townland..right? Not familiar with the names of the parishes/townlands yet as I live in the States. But under "denomination" it has "Corahoo & Cartrons" for both Thomas and George.

Charles, Jeremiah and Samuel are new names to me in my searching so far. A certain George is listed on William's marriage cert. as William's father, listed as farmer in Co. Longford. So that is why I think there is a strong possibility that the George listed on the Harman Tenant List of 1855 could be William/Alex/Marcellas father but at this point I can't prove that and not sure how. The time frame is fairly close anyway.

I havea South Carolina death cert copy for Alex but it does not state parents' names. No birth cert for Alex found yet, but lists Dublin as place of birth on several documents--ship papers and US Census forms.

The only proof I have of Marcella's birth/death is family history found on Ancestry.com and on findagrave.com.... She does have a marriage cert out of Maryland as marrying a James Johnson in 1873 but no parent listing. I'm sure there is a death cert but it seems no one has it documented on Ancestry yet.

Appreciate your interest.

Will

I would expect that in this case 'denomination' refers to the location. generally the townland name, but 'Corahoo & Cartrons' sounds like a mistranscription or possibly two adjacent place names merged together.

Given the date being so close to that for the primary valuation I spot checked a couple of the less common names, and several of these matched up with the Harman Rentals ok - e.g. James Goldrick is listed on Griffth's at Agharanagh townland, Taghshinny civil parish Co. Longford with L.H.K. Harman as immediate lessor. Maybe George and Thomas only took the properies just after Griffiths (it's dated 10th Oct 1854 for this area), so dont appear.. this could suggest they moved to 'Corahoo & Cartrons' from somewhere else

At least a few of the places listed on Harmons Rentals are in Co. Westmeath...

I also tried a general search for surname Harman on Griffith's for Co. Longford and got 877 results, most if not all seem to be for L.H.K, so didn't get to check those. Repeating for Westmeath gives just 29, some  of these show him as Laurence King Harman

one of the other names listed on the Harman's Rentals with denomination 'Cornahoo & Cartrons ' is an Alexander Payne, and he seems to be listed twice on Griffiths, the first (his house and principle property) at Derrycolumb townland with immediate lessor as Colonel Henry White, and the second of just over 34 acres of land at Newtownflanigan townland. Both of these are in Cashel civil parish (there are number of places named Cashel, inc. the town in Tipperary). Not a definitive match to this 'Corahoo & Cartrons', but at least a possible lead to someone else listed for the same location, and with a relatively uncommon name, and therefore worth following up...

No placenames showing up in Co. Longford starting with Cora, so suspect that's a spelling variation, local name, or transcription error, and there are two townlands named Cartons and two named Carton in Co. Longfrod, along with about 16 beginning with Cartron, but nothing jumping out for the 'Corahoo & Cartrons' combination
 

p.s.I dont know if you've seen the actual marriage cert - the original is on the free IrishGenealogy website. Note that the status of fathers are not generally mentioned on marriage certs, so no way to be certain from this cert if Thomas was still alive in 1876. See this link for a transcript of the record, and see 'view register' link lower down on the page to view that page of the register. (you may need to enter a Cpatcha security code to access the details on the link)

Yes I have a copy of William's marriage cert. (and I mistakenly put in another post that a George was listed as his father---it should have been listed as Thomas).

With documented info at hand (Irish census saying that William was born in Dublin and the marriage cert saying Thomas was a farmer in Co. Longford), it is possible that Thomas lived and worked in Dublin (Co. or city) when William was born (Alex also listed Dublin as his place of birth in 1846 -- on several US documents such as censuses.

I posted earlier replying to another post from you and for some reason it did not post---so I will gather my thoughts and repost whatever I said!

Googled this and found that Cornahoo/Cartrons is next to Keenagh and is located in "An Longfort", Leinster.  Now, right now this doesn't mean much to me because I am unfamiliar with those names except Leinster.  So there is a Cornahoo/Cartrons it looks like but in my limited knowledge/experience of ancestral tracing (about a month now), I have no idea what to do next.  Things are rather cloudy.

Is Co. Westmeath close to Co. Longford?  Or is Agharanagh close to or in Co. Longford?  So would it make sense for me to google those 2 and see what records I can find during the mid 1800's?   

The civil parish of Kilcommock contains the townlands of both Cartrons and Cornahoo as per google search. not sure if they boundry each other or not but I suspect they do or at least did in 1855. I need now to try to get access to any cemetery records, church records and etc for those 2 townlands or for Kilcommock. I realize that this is current information and geographical boundaries may have changed from mid 1800's, right? And there is no sure thing that Thomas lived there, he may have just farmed there and lived closeby in another townland.

This makes sense to me but let me know if I am off-base.

Found a Thomas and George Gipson (spelling different with a p) in Griffiths Evaluation of 1854 renting from Harman in Cornahoo townland. So still need to check for any records in Parish of Kilcommack and townland Cornahoo for Thomas. If this is THE Thomas I am now wondering who George was--a brother maybe or cousin or even father to Thomas? Do I need to go back and search for Thomas Gipson instead of Gibson? Probably not I guess or I would have recognized the different spelling on any form or document.

well done spotting that typo Gipson... The townland and civil parish boundaries would have been stable by the 1850s. This particular townland of Cornahoo consists of just over 70 acres, and Cartrons townland just over 250 acres. Both are located to the north east of the town of Keenagh and you can see the townland of Cartrons on the c1837 OSI maps at this link, Cornahoo townland does have a border to this and is just north of Cartrons here.

Some slightly earlier details of the Civil parish of Kilcommock / Kilcommick are available here from Lewis 1837.

Would you agree that there should now be a general assumption or deduction that the Thomas Gibson that was farmer in Co. Longford is my ggg grandfather? Can you zero me in on how to go about getting documentation to that effect--since the documentation is the proof I need for a family connection and not just an assumption. I will explore Cornahoo, Kilcommack, Ballymahon Union, Moydow Barony and Co. Longford for any civil/parish records although I am not familiar if these records are available in each or all of those places.

Think I will spend a little time back-tracking to Dublin to see if I can reveal any history of this particular Thomas the farmer being the Thomas the family man I am after. Also, this other Gibson named George interests me a lot....if they are kin and they probably are, then he also may have lived in Dublin before going on to Co. Longford. My gg grandfather Alex who came to the States was named George Alexander Gibson so my imagination tells me that he may have been named after an Uncle George, Cousin George or Granddaddy George.

On the Griffith's valuation of 1854 showing they both rented form Mr. Harmman:: it shows that Thomas rented house and land, and George rented house, land and office. Not sure of the significance of that if any.

At any rate I appreciate the information that you have provided so far, and your encouragement. Will Gibson

That Thomas certainly might be father to that William, and therefore your Alex etc, so I think definitely a lead worth following up..

The Church of Ireland parish for for Kilcommock / Kilcommick civil parish is also called Kilcommock / Kilcommick and it's historic baptism, marriage and Death/Burial records go back to about 1827. These are held, like many CofI records, in the RCB (Representative Church Body) Library in Co. Dublin. RootsIreland do have transcripts for some CofI parishes in Co. Longford, but their sources page doesn't mention any for this parish.

The important location details for your vital record search are the parish and townland names - the district (i.e. Ballymahon) only really becomes important for Civil records of birth, marriage and death which started in 1864. In addition non-Catholic marriages were registered from 1845, anything before this would be church records - e.g. baptisms rather than births.

The term offices on Griffith's refers to additional buildings on the property such as stables, barns, workshops, farm buildings etc

some long-shots for you to note..

1. from the BMD Index, a death of a Thomas Gibson in Ballymahon district, age might work out as poss. father to William (I dont think a year has been mentioned for Alex or Marcella ?).

Name Thomas Gibson
Event Type : Death
Registration Year 1874
Registration District : Ballymahon
Reported Age 70 (est. year of birth 1804)
Volume 8 / Page 23

Death certs dont include much family information, but other details like the occupation, place of residence/death, and name of the informant can help establishing links

2. the second one is an extracted civil marriage from FamilySearch... that might possibly be a sister to William etc, as it's in 'Kilcommack' (probably a reference to the CofI parish) and her father's name is Thomas.

Groom : Thomas Magee
Bride : Jane Gibson
Marriage Date : 03 Feb 1859
Event Place : Kilcommack, Long(ford)
Groom's father : John Magee
Bride's father : Thomas Gibson
Ref. 403

This should appear on the BMD Index, page number will match, so you could order a research cert to find put the rest of the details.

Thanks. This looks significant. Only other reference I had found about Thomas' death had a Thomas Gibson buried in Co. Fermanagh--forgot death yr and cemetery right at this moment--but this didn't seem to match but it was all I had to go on at the time. But the information you found about the death does seem reasonable to me. Now what site can I go to to look at this? It's probably in your post and I'm just missing it.

Will also go to Family Search to look at the marriage of a Jane Gibson and Thomas Magee. If she is part of my family this will be the first discovery of her so that would be great..just need to dig a little further but things are looking up. Will do what I need to do to get documentation.

I did not mean to say that a Thomas Gibson was buried at Co. Fermanagh. Correct that to a William Gibson that I saw. But at any rate, neither one would have probably ended up at Fermanagh, isn't that in Northern Ireland?

The death is just an index record, you can view here on FamilySearch. It's not absolutely certain that's the same Thomas, as he could have died before civil records started, or moved away from the area, but might be worth checking... eliminating if nothing else

For GRO research certs, which cost €4 - download the order form from this link (it's an MSWord document), print out a copy. Enter your details in section 1, and your credit card details in section 3. Put the index references for the record you wish to order (name, reg. district, record type, year/quarter, page & volume) in section 2  - ignore the irrelevant sections on the form such as exact date or birth etc, the forms are more geared to modern official certs for legal purposes. In section 3 tick the 'photocopy' option to select the cheaper research certs. Post (or fax) the completed form to the GRO, the head office address is at the top of the form.

The GRO is overseen by the Dept.of Social Protection or Welfare which is why the website has the welfare.ie address.

Certs are normally delivered by post, but you can opt for delivery by email by ticking the option in section 1 and including an email address.

While I think of it, I found one child registered to that Thomas Magee and Jane Gibson in extracted civil births - they could have had additional children before the start of civil records :

Name : Anne Magee
Birth Date : 11 Jun 1865
Birthplace    0036, Abbeyshrule, Longford
Parents : Thomas Magee & Jane Gibson

(the 0036 is probably the register page number, which helps locate the full index reference, and birth place on these is often the name of a district rather than an exact  townland etc)

Co. Fermangh is in the province of Ulster and quite a distance north of Longford, so not very likey place of death for those based in Longford. The surname Gibson is far more common in northen counties so if he, or any of the family, did move there they could be difficult to find.

I was just wondering about that letter that helped link to that William Gibson in Dublin city by matching the address - does it specifically mention that William and Alex are brothers, or could they be relations e.g. cousins ?

The letter is owned by another person in the Gibson line in another state. I have not seen the original letter. She has put a copy of the letter on Ancestry.com but the bottom part of the letter on last page is cropped off so not sure if there is a clue in signature such as a "Brother William" or what. If you'd like, go to Ancestry and type in Alexander (Alex) Gibson with birth date of 1846 and death date of 1904 and there will be several trees to pop up that will have it.

I have sent a message to her asking just what you asked about the reliability of the brother connection or could it be a cousin, etc. As far as I know there is no other document that states they are brothers. Good insight by you on that. It has never crossed my mind. Will let you know what I find out.

In looking over Williams letter, there is mention of Kenagh so there is some type of connection to that place. Nowhere in the letter besides mentioning Alex in salutation, is there a mention of other family--just some mutual friends.

In talking to the person who has access to the letter about a month ago, I think it was inferred that through family oral history is how the connection is made as to William and Alex being brothers. Not sure of that but that is what I am thinking.

I had mentioned Kenagh in the post before. On googling it I see that it is 2.5 km from Cornahoo. Not sure if William is saying Kenagh is where he lived in 1903 or where he had friends. Will check on that.

Tried to attach a file of the letter..but unable to because of wrong format being used. Will try again another way..but in case you do go to Ancestry, I forgot to mention to click on Family Trees first and then search name to find the letter easier. You should see Gibson surname as part of some of the first trees listed.

The mention of Kenagh is certainly a good pointer for William, and since the letter being in the family I would think it's very likely that he's connected..  

Your mention of 'Dublin' as place of birth on some documents for Alex is bothering me a little..

I'll have a look for that letter on Ancestry trees..

I'd say this is the 'poor Amby' mentioned in the letter - Ambrose Gibson, 'Park Ranger' (I'm assuming that was similar to a gamekeeper) age 68 born Co. Longford, living in Portlaw Co. Waterford with his wife Eliza.. sounds like a link between William and Alex..

The death appears on the BMD Index under Carrick-on-Suir which covers parts of Co. Waterford and Tipperary, and interestingly his surname is shown as Gipson

after mentioning Kenagh, William goes on write about the marriage of Mary Anne Shaw to James Hall, eldest son of Robert Hall. The wording of that, and the next sentence makes me suspect that Alexander knew Mary Anne better than Robert ?

The marriage he mentions took place nearly 20 years earlier in 1884 (Ballymahon, Jul-Sept, v3/p15), so
doesn't sound like thier communications were very frequent

James and Mary Ann are shown in 1901 in Meelick townland, which is a townland in Ballycormick civil parish immediatly north of Kilcommock parish. Mary Anne's age is shown as 52 (c1849), and James 47 (c1854) so Mary Ann is a little closer in age to your Alex, and James Hall to William.

There's a likely match for the death of James Hall's father Robert in 1897 on the probate calendar, shown as Shopkeeper & Farmer of Kenagh Co Longford. The principle executor is a James Hall, farmer of Kenagh - so probably his son.  So more evidence of connections to Kenagh.. I'd be pretty sure based on this that William and Alex both grew up in, or near, Kenagh, so them being brothers is certainly possible, if not close relations.

I'd definitely suggest keeping an eye out for any sign of Kilcommick Church of Ireland records being added to RootsIreland or the RCB website (they have a small number of registers digitized and plan to add more), as that's the way to confirm the exact family details..

You surely have uncovered a lot of possibilities and I will try to digest all soon. Will be out of town most of the weekend and hope to still be somewhat active in my searching but just not as much til we get back.

I'm still waiting on a reply from the person who is privvy to the letter from William to Alex to see how the letter was signed off on by William. I do think that there is a lot of oral family history that has been passed down from that line of Gibsons and that is why it seems they are confident they are brothers as stated on their family trees. Sadly, on my side, there is almost zero information. So I feel fortunate to see what they have gathered.

For what it's worth I reveiwed William's marriage certifcate and a Mary Anne Thomas signed as a witness. Could this be the Mary Anne mentioned in the letter--maybe another marriage?

I will keep looking at the rootsireland and RCB websites to see if there is any new information..Thanks a lot, this is great what you've done.

Saw on civil records (from-ireland.net) that an Ann Bole died in 1865 age 40 in Ballymahon. Information from the other Gibson Tree on Ancestry has a Boule? as Thomas's wife but not documented. That would put her in the time period--just a possible variation of the spelling.

Also listed is an Eliza Bole died in 1865 age 43 in Ballymahon. One could be the wife and the other kin somehow and the Gibson surname for the wife is not mentioned?

Where is Laois? Is it near Ballymahon District? A Samuel Bole was buried at Laois, Abbeyleix Graveyard in 1940---this may be a stretch---but maybe not. Seems like I need t0 focus on Gibson instead of Bole but there may be a connection afterall.

Just other possible connections to Thomas and his family.

Co. Laois (formerly Queen's County) is in the midlands, as is Co. Longford, but they are not neighbours - see here for a map of the counties in Ireland, and some history (Wikipedia). Ballymahon town is in Co. Longford, but when it appears on the BMD Index it's a reference to the civil registration district that covers parts of counties Longford and Westmeath.

I've come across the surname Boles/Bole or Bowles, I think the family I looked into were from Co. Leitrim or Cavan, and it's not that common a surname, but I think I'd concentrate on your Gibson side first and see where that leads.

Yes you are right. I need to focus for now on Gibsons and not his first wife, Boule.

I now have the last part of the letter that William wrote Alex. He signed it: "Your loving brother William". Also the signature looks like the signature on William's Marriage Cert.

Also have a child's school assignment that was done about 1900 or so. It is a family tree that she was assigned to do and shows Alex's name as grandfather I think. I tried to upload both of these and can't due to size of file. Not very computer smart to be honest so when I figure this out I will hopefully send.

good news on that letter - at least confirms they are brothers. Everything else is adding up for that Thomas Gibson/Gipson in Cornahoo townland near Kenagh. George could be an uncle to Alex and William, as could 'Amby'..

There is also a Tom Gibson listed on the little girl's family tree as Alex's father and a Boule listed as Tom's wife (first name looks like Ann but not too clear. Yes, I also believe that the farmer in Cornahoo named Thomas Gibson is Alex's dad, and who died in 1874 at Ballymahon District at age 70 with approximate birth year of 1804 give or take a year.

Now what is interesting to me is the Jane Gibson who married a Thomas Magee on 03 Feb 1859 at Kilcommack, and who listed a Thomas Gibson as her father. Haven't had time to focus on ordering a research cert yet on Family Search but I will. Other interesting people are George Gibson and the child registered to Thomas and Jane, name of Ann Magee born on 11 June 1865 at Abbeyshrule in Co. Longford.

Thanks.

Thanks.

I did get around to downloading/printing the order form from GRO to process Thomas' death cert. the photo copy will be emailed to me...Still need to order a research cert on Family Search/BMD index--next thing to do.

I have these names rolling around in my head to do further researching after you got the ball rolling for me: Jane and Thomas Magee, Amby,George, Charles, Jeremiah, Samuel. Either to confirm a family connection or to eliminate. Pretty sure Amby is in the family as maybe a brother to Thomas, and fairly sure of a connection on George, also maybe a brother or cousin to Thomas. The other three--Charles, Jeremiah and Samuel could very well be sons of George but I just need to do further digging.

Already you have given me valuable skills and research tools to use. I feel like I have a good start. Still am amazed at how quickly you have uncovered some of this.