Family of James Smith (Smyth) and Catherine Maguire

Richard,

Drumerwinter & Crocknagross are both in Fermanagh. However until 1922 they were in the civil registration area of Clones, Monaghan. So Ancestry has listed them in Monaghan when they are not there at all.

In Griffiths Valuation 1862 there were only 5 farms in Drumerwinter, 2 of which were tenanted by Smith families – Mary & John, so they are probably your family. When a woman is listed as a farmer in Griffiths, she’s usually a widow, so that’s probably Mary Quigley, and tells you James had died before 1862.

You can follow through to see changes of head of household using the Valuation revision records on the PRONI site:

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/proni

Here’s the 2 farms in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Dresternian/Drumerwinter/1361989/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Dresternian/Drumerwinter/1361990/

here’s also a Quigley family next door:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Dresternian/Drumerwinter/1361991/

1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Fermanagh/Dresternan/Drumerwinter/

Probate abstracts:

Administration of the Estate of Charles Smith late of Drumerwinter County Fermanagh Farmer who died 8 April 1910 granted at Armagh to John Smith Farmer.

Probate of the Will of John Smith late of Drumerwinter County Fermanagh Farmer (Retired) who died 3 April 1912 granted at Armagh to Michael Scott and John Lynch Farmers

Smith John of Drumerwinter county Fermanagh farmer died 16 January 1913 Administration Londonderry 14 July to Mary C. Smith widow. Effects £79.

Smith James of Drumerwinter county Fermanagh farmer died 13 December 1920 Administration Londonderry 31 May to Mary C. Smith widow. Effects £74

The 1912 will is on-line on the PRONI site. The other 3 died intestate and so there’s no will.  There should be a probate file in PRONI though.

Here’s Ellen’s statutory birth record at Drumerwinter on 19.6.1870. The informant was a Maguire from Crocknagross which links the 2 families nicely.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03345/2226276.pdf

Here’s Felix’s birth in Tirnahinch on 13.11.1880 so the family had evidently moved from Drumerwinter by 1880.  Tirnahinch is in Co. Monaghan, but not too far from Drumerwinter.  James Smith was working as a labourer then, probably an agricultural labourer. Labouring jobs were not very well paid and agricultural labourers jobs were disappearing because of increased mechanisation on farms so these would be underlying reasons behind the family’s decision to emigrate.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02850/2044376.pdf

I note you have Ellen arriving in the US on the Austrian from Glasgow. She may indeed have joined the vessel in Glasgow. That wouldn’t be such a difficult place to get to from Fermanagh. However many sailings from Glasgow to the US & Canada also called at Moville in Co Donegal and picked up passengers there. So she possibly joined the vessel there. In my experience of others who have joined ships there, the US and Canadian arrival records often don’t distinguish and just record them all as having joined at Glasgow. Moville is the deep water port for Londonderry. It’s too shallow to get large vessels alongside in the city centre and so the bigger vessels anchored a few miles downstream at Moville and tenders took the passengers ashore.

If you ever go to Moville you will find the FID, on the steps of the pier, which is a memorial to the many thousands of Irish people who embarked there. Today’s modern cruise ships also anchor there now, reversing the process.

No Maguires in Crocknagross in 1901. The Valuation revision records will show when they left. 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Dresternian/…

Clogher RC baptism records start in 1856, the marriages 1825 (with a gap). You may struggle to get back much before that due to the lack of records.

Elwyn,

Thank you for your help.  I was very happy to see the reords, understand a bit about Fermanagh and Monaghan in the Clones area, and hear your suggestions for continued research. I have some questions...some are just general given my skill in Irish records reserach are basic.  I would appreciate any help/suggestions.

You provided "In Griffiths Valuation 1862 there were only 5 farms in Drumerwinter, 2 of which were tenanted by Smith families – Mary & John, so they are probably your family. When a woman is listed as a farmer in Griffiths, she’s usually a widow, so that’s probably Mary Quigley, and tells you James had died before 1862."

First, I am not very familiar with the Griffiths Valuations.  If you have any suggestions on how to use them/research with them, I would appreciate it.  I thought Mary might have been Mary Quigley, but I was not aware that when a woman was listed on the Griffiths she is typically a widow.  Any other pieces of ifromation like this would be helpful.

Also, since the information you have suggests James died before 1862, is there a recommendation for how I can find his death record (online, contacting a Govt office, or in person - I hope to be in the Roslea/Clones area this spring or summer).

I was also wondering if there is a cemetary that the family would likely be burined in

And thank you for the census records.  I have come across some of these previously (for my grandmother's family in Kerry). For these records, it seems like I am just guessing these folks are related and how they might fit in.  Do you have any suggestions in understanding potential family relationships?   I suppose I will understand it better when I work through the Griffiths and probate files.  Also on the census records, is there a way I can find out where "house 1" is? And if house 1 is house 1 in 1911? And finally (for now), are there census records after 1911 that are availabel for reserach?  I understand I may after trougle going futher back in time, buut one of my other goals is to see if I have living cosuins in Ireland and make contact.  They may know infomation not in the offical records.  I have photos of my great-grandfather from ~1900 after he arrived inthe U.S.

On the probate records, did you find that information on the PRONI website?  I am intersted in getting copies of the records and seeing if they have additional details.

On the birth and baptismal records, do yo uhave any suggestuons on how to utilize the witness information to figure out fmaily relationships?  For example, on Ellen's birth record where you noted Margaret Maguire as a witness, would she likely be Catherine's mother or a sister?

The last question...for now at least...some of the records spell the last name as Smith and others as Smyth.  Was that just a function of who was recording the records?  I noted that several of the records had "His MarK" which tells me the family didnt fill out the forms.

Again, thank yo for your help.  I'm going to go see what I can learn....

Rick Smith

I found a birth record for Catherine Smith

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

The residence of her father (James) is listed as Poundhill, Clones.  Is that a street/house address in Clones? Or would that be a different Townland?  I have not been able to locate either in Monaghan of Fermanagh.

Rick

Rick,

I went over the records for the 2 Smith/Smyth farms in Drumerwinter and have had a change of mind about which one was your family's. I did think that plot 1 (Mary Smith in 1862) was your family. I now think that plot 2 (John Smith in 1862) was yours. Though I remain pretty sure the 2 families were closely related. In 1832 the 2 farms were both 22.5 acres in size which suggests that a 45 acre farm was split in 2 at some time, possibly between 2 brothers. I can also see that the farm buildings for the 2 farms were within a few yards of each other, again suggesting a very close relationship.

You asked about farms in a woman’s name. Farms in Ireland were generally held by the male line, with fathers leaving the farm to the eldest son. They did sometimes leave a farm to a daughter but usually only when no male heir was around to take it over.  Mostly it went to a son, with the widow having a life interest in it (often on condition she did not re-marry). So in that type of patriarchal society, if a woman’s name appears as the head of household for a farm, in 95% of cases, she’s a widow, usually with a life interest. After her death it usually goes to one of her sons. But not always of course.

I went to the tithe applotment records for 1832. I found there were 2 Smith farms there (plus 1 Lynch). Patt Smith had one and James Smith had the other. Presumably that’s your James, and Patt was some relation to him. Perhaps a brother. I can’t really say.

http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp

It appears that by 1862 both were dead and so then we have plot 1 held by Mary who I feel is probably a widow. I now think she was Patt’s widow. Plot 2 was held by John. I have found John’s marriage certificate in 1870, and it names his father as James. John was born c 1830 and so is presumably a brother to  your James who married Catherine Maguire.

Regarding James’s death pre 1862, death registration only started in Ireland in 1864 and so you won’t find a death certificate for him. The RC church generally doesn’t keep burial records and so there’s probably no documentary record of his death or burial. If he had a gravestone then you might get something from that but in the mid 1800s, the majority of the population couldn’t afford one. Visiting the local graveyards is probably the only way to find out if the family has one. I think Mary Quigley must also have been dead by 1862 as otherwise she would have been listed as head of household for plot 2.

Because most of the pre 1901 censuses in Ireland have been destroyed, we use land records as an alterative way of tracing people. Griffiths Valuation (which was compiled between the years 1848 & 1864) lists most properties in Ireland. It’s not as good as a census because obviously it doesn’t list children, servants, or people lodging with someone, nor does it explain relationships, but it does contain a useful list of who lived where. Especially if you know the townland they lived in, as in your case.

To view the properties in Drumerwinter, go to the Griffiths site and click on Griffiths places. Enter Drumerwinter and it will bring up all the heads of household. In 1862 Mary Smith had plot 1 which was 44 acres, 3 roods and 10 perches. (So just under 45 acres). However when you go to the Revaluation records on the PRONI site, by 1864 she has gone and has been replaced by Patrick Smith. So she probably died between 1862 and 1864, give or take a year or two.  I think Patrick was her son.  Patrick Smith was a bachelor. He died 21.4.1885 at Drumerwinter, aged 52. The informant was his brother James Smyth, also of Drumerwinter.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1885/06286/4801110.pdf

The property then stays in the name of “the reps of Patrick Smith” until 1911 when the Lynch family take over. But it appears to have been inhabited by Smiths until then. This must presumably be the farm because it has a James Smith in it:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Dresternian/Drumerwinter/1361990/

John Smith’s will in 1912 mentions brothers Charles, James & Thomas, a deceased sister and brothers and his deceased grandfather Charles Connolly of Tattymore.

Plot 2 held by John Smith in 1862 was 46 acres 1 rood 20 perches (so just over 46 acres and 1 quarter). By 1864 the farm has been divided, with William Smith having just under 13 acres, John Smith (plot 2b) another 13 and Michael Lynch having 13. William Smith’s name is deleted in 1880 and replaced by Frances Quigley.

The 1901 census lists John Smyth born c 1830 and his son James born c 1871. I found James Smyth’s birth certificate in Drumerwinter on 3.12.1870. That gave me his mother’s name of Catherine Carroll. She married John Smyth in Roslea chapel on 3.2.1870. John Smyth’s father was James Smyth. So that is presumably the same James Smyth who was the father of your James who married Mary Maguire. Catherine Smyth (nee Carroll) appears to have died in 1871 aged 34.

Regarding cemeteries, I don’t know the area well enough to help you there. You might ask at the parochial office in Clones, or contact St Macartans in Roslea for suggestions. (There’s more than 1 church in the parish. St Macartan’s looks to be the closest to Drumerwinter but I don’t know when it was built so can’t tell you whether it was the one they attended in the 1830s. If it wasn't there at that time, they may have gone into Clones. St Macartan’s was open in 1870 as that’s where John Smyth married Catherine Carroll):

http://www.clonesparish.com/contact-us/

The idea of a single or correct spelling for a surname or a place name is very much a recent phenomenon designed to meet the needs of modern officialdom. Before that, especially in Ireland, there was no consistency. Names were spelled phonetically and each variation was down to the whim of the particular person recording the information. You will often see the spelling change as the records go back. This rarely indicates a deliberate decision to alter the name, nor even a mistake. Not everyone was literate, but even when they were, exact spelling simply wasn’t something they bothered about.

Here’s an example of the spelling varying within the same family in the same census return. That’s how little they cared:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Sharvogues/Drumsough/920148/

So expect the spelling to vary. It was the norm.

The X in place of a signature usually indicates that someone could not really read and write, though perversely I have seen some people put a cross on one document and then sign their name conventionally on another. So maybe it was just easier to put a cross at times. Don’t really know.

Regarding the house numbers on the censuses, you should ignore those. In rural Ireland in the early 1900s, there were no street names and houses had no numbers. (Still true today in some parts). Your name and your townland was sufficient to identify you, or get a letter delivered. The numbers on the censuses were the enumerators’ private numbering system, which varied from census to census and bear no relation to Griffiths or any other source. The farm that appears to me to be the one that your family originated from is plot 2.

There were only 5 or 6 farms in the townland. I’ve had a look at the farms on plots 1 & 2 today (on Google Earth).  It is still agricultural land but both farm houses and related out-buildings are gone. Just some marks on the ground where they stood. So sadly there are no Smiths living in the old homesteads today. But there might be some in the area. There is a big new farm nearby on the lane up to the old Smith farms, so I’d knock on the door there to see if they know anything of your family.  Drumerwinter is about half a mile west of Roslea. Head along the Dernawilt Rd towards Donagh, and then it’s off to the right. Unless your map reading skills are good you may need to stop and ask. Satnavs aren’t much good in that area (they don’t recognise most townland names and zipcodes, or postcodes as we call them, cover too wide an area), and so asking locally usually is more productive.

Looking at the Valuation revision records for 1929 plot 1 was held by John & Luke Lynch. Plot 2 had been Francis Quigley but in 1926 he had been replaced by Mary Smith, so there was a Smith presence on that farm within the past 90 years.

Re Probate abstracts, yes I got them from the PRONI website. John’s will is on-line. The other files will be in paper format. You can view them free if you go to PRONI or you can pay PRONI to copy them for you.

Re witnesses, there are no rules about who the witnesses are. For marriages they can be anyone. A friend, a sibling, a parent, even the sexton of the church in some cases. For births it can be a parent or nay other person present at the birth. So a neighbour or midwife, as well as any relative who was there.  Today it’s often a hospital official.

Pound Hill is a street in Clones. (The pound was where stray cattle and sheep were held. Hence the word impounded). Here’s the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Monaghan/Clones_Urban/…

There is a Smyth family there who were born in Fermanagh so don't if they are connected. The mother’s maiden name was Margaret Lawlor, which I got from the birth of their youngest Elizabeth born Pound Hill 2.8.1894 and who died there in 1903. I can’t find the parents marriage though to get John’s father’s name. There’s a conflict between the 1901 census and the 1911. The 1901 has all the children born in Monaghan, whereas the 1911 has the 4 surviving ones born in Scotland.

I can’t locate births for the first 4 in Ireland so suspect there were born in Scotland and the family stayed till around 1893. Only the last child seems to have been born in Monaghan. The parents married c 1882. I looked for the marriage in Scotland but couldn’t see it there either.  However Scottish birth certificates do record where and when the parents married, so it might be possible to find out that way, should you wish to get someone to search for them. As well as being very common in Ireland, Smith/Smyth is the most common surname in Scotland and a nightmare to research.

Elwyn,

I want to thank you again for all of your help.  Its going to take me a few days (at least) to digest the information and see what to do next.

I do have a few questions tonight...hopefully they dont take much of your time.

I will be traveling to Ireland this summer and visiting the Roslea area (as well as several other areas, each for a short visit).  You mentioned "There is a big new farm nearby on the lane up to the old Smith farms, so I’d knock on the door there to see if they know anything of your family." I would love to do this, but I wanted to ask if that would generally be accepatble to do?

I would also like to ask if there would be a way for me to contact the current owners/residents before I arrive in the area.  Would there be a local town hall I could reach out to that might be able to provide the information? 

I will look at the Census you found for Clones, but I was wondering if you knew if the Pound Hill Street still existed there today and if it was under the same name?  I wasn table to locate it, but plan to try another time after reviewing the census data.

You may get some more questions from me in a few days/week. In the meantime, I would like to thank you for your help.  You have been very generous.

If you need any assistance researching records in Massachusetts or anywhere over here, please let me know and I will do what I can.

Rick

And if I understand the Griffiths valuation maps properly for Drumerwinter (Farm 1 and 2) then the Google Map location would be Lat/Lon 54.249092,-7.219814.  Looking at the farm , there appear to be some older structures or the remnats of tehm behind the trees.

Rick

And would this (54.252613,-7.228457) possibly be the Maguire family farms in Crocknagross?  House 7?  I was thinking this might be the family of Catherine Maguire (the wife of James Smith).

Sorry for more questions.  I'm just excited about the information you provided and the trip to the area.

Rick

Rick,

Regarding the location of the farms, I got 54 15 07.54 & 7 13 49.37 for the Crocknagross farm and 54 14 55.34 & 7 13 25.17 for Drumerwinter.

Crocknagross is complicated by the fact that it comprises 3 separate parcels of land, in different parts of the townland, all of which amount to a total of around 14 acres. The farmhouse itself appears to have been on plot 7b. There is some sort of building standing there today but I can’t tell what it is from the image. It might be an old farm or replacement buildings. I just don’t know.

Don’t worry about knocking on strangers doors. Most people here are welcoming and will help you if they can. What I don’t know is what they will know about the Smith farms. They were inhabited in the 1930s, at least, and so there’s a possibility that there’s someone alive today who can tell you more about them.  There’s also the possibility that the inhabitants of the modern farm are related to them in some way. If they don’t know much themselves, they may be able to direct you to an elderly person in the area who might know a bit more. That’s often what happens.

If you want to walk up to the site of the old farms, ask their permission. Most will happily let you do that.  Indeed looking at the lane in the googleearth image I would say you should be able to get a car right down to the site, as it provides access to some fields which farm vehicles obviously still use.

We are well used to folk from the US, Canada, Australia and elsewhere looking for their ancestors, and so your interest in the property shouldn’t mystify the current owners. I have had visitors knock on my own front door for exactly that reason.  If I visit a graveyard here in the summer months, there’s invariably a hire car in the car park and two people in their 60s or 70s with notebook and camera ready, wandering through the gravestones. I know what they are doing without having to ask.

The Valuation Revision records on the PRONI site only go up to 1929, but there is a further series of records in the VAL/3 series at PRONI which take those records forward to the 1970s. So it should be possible to determine when both farms were abandoned, if you want to find out. The VAL/3 series of records are not on-line and a personal visit to PRONI is required to view them. PRONI staff will help you look them up.

Nowadays people tend not to bother using or renovating older farm houses. Usually they were a bit too small for modern tastes, they lacked a damp course (a water seal) running water and inside toilets etc. So people tend just to clear them away and start again. So finding the old homesteads abandoned or demolished, and replaced by a bigger more modern house, is fairly common. Ireland’s not a museum and keeping older buildings for sentimental reasons isn’t always high on the agenda if you are running a modern farm. Sometimes you get lucky and find they have converted the old farmhouse into a store or outbuilding. Occasionally they keep it standing with an eye to letting a young son or daughter build there in due course, when they marry. (Planning permission is always easier to get for a replacement dwelling than for a green field site).

If you look at the “House & building return” for Drumerwinter in the 1911 census, you will see that the 2 farms had walls of stone, brick or concrete, and the roof was made of thatch or wood. There were between 2 and 4 rooms in both. One had 2 windows at the front and the other 3. One had 3 outbuildings and the other had 1. Both had a cow house, and one had a calf house and a shed. So what you were looking at were single storey buildings with almost certainly stone walls and thatched roofs.  You can find examples of buildings like those in the Folk & Transport museum at Cultra in Belfast and elsewhere in Ulster. The odd one has been preserved and used as holiday accommodation or similar. I have attached a photo of a renovated one in Co Antrim which gives you a rough idea. It’s been whitewashed and has a very tidy roof. The real thing would have been a bit scruffier in most cases, and generally wouldn’t have been whitewashed.

I can’t think of a way of finding out who lives at these properties today because we don’t have an address for either. After Murphy, Maguire and Smith are amongst the most common surnames in Ireland. Doesn't help.

I don’t know whether Pound Hill is still named that today but I would call at Clones Library and ask there, They have a good local studies & genealogy section. There are probably old and modern maps and by comparison you should be able to work out where it was. Or the staff may just know. See:

https://monaghan.ie/library/clones/

My general advice to you is to leave at least 1 day spare in your schedule. I find many visitors researching their family run out of time. You may uncover something during your visit which requires more time than you anticipated eg tracking down some local person with knowledge of the families.  Don’t leave everything to the last day of your holiday as some seem to do.

Elwyn,

I have been going over the information you provided, and had another question.  In your post from 8 April you said "It appears that by 1862 both were dead and so then we have plot 1 held by Mary who I feel is probably a widow. I now think she was Patt’s widow. Plot 2 was held by John. I have found John’s marriage certificate in 1870, and it names his father as James. John was born c 1830 and so is presumably a brother to  your James who married Catherine Maguire."

I have been trying to find John's marriage record but havent been able to locate it.  Was itin the civil or church records?  Or can you procide a link?

I had found (or you provided a link to) a birth record for a James Smith, born 3 Dec 1870, to John Smith and Catherine Carrol of Drumerwinter.  I am assuming this is the John you found the marriage record for (that may be the brother to my James Smith/Catherine Maguire) that held Lot #2 in 1862 and the son James (b.1870) who held part of the plot (#2b) about 1878.

Rick

Rick,

I found the 1870 marriage in the civil records. The 1901 census told me he had a son James. I found his birth on 3.12.1870. And from that I knew his mother was Catherine Carroll.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03321/2216959.pdf

From that I found that the parents married 8.2.1870 at Rosslea RC church. (Rosslea is spelled on the certificate with the old fashioned long double SS.)

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1870/11372/8175472.pdf