Ryan/Raleigh of Clonaspoe near Cashel

Hi Pablo

I couldn't find a record for Philip with those parents

I found 1 for Catherine:
Name: Catherine Ryan Date of Birth:
Date of Baptism: 27-Mar-1839
Address: Not Recorded Parish/District: HOLYCROSS
Gender: Female County Co. Tipperary
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: Martin Ryan Mother: Ellen Cahill
Occupation: Not Recorded
Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1: James Flanagan Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2: Catherine Ryan

But I couldn't find 1 for Mary with the same parents either; there are some with father Martin & mother Ellen but mother's last name is different!

No luck with James at all - there are a few Johns but parents don't match!

Col

Pablo:

Clonaspoe is in Oughterleague civil parish and the related RC parish is Knockavilla. That parish is part of the Archdiocese of Cashel and Emly and records for that archdiocese with a few exceptions are not online. Oughterleague is to the west of Cashel.

On July 8th the National Library of Ireland will be placing all RC parish registers online for free searching. Records for Knockavilla start in 1834 so likely you will not find Philip but Mary, Catherine and James should be on the register. See availability of records below.

I also checked the 1850 Griffiths Valuation head of household listing for Oughterleague and there were a number of Ryan records in Clonaspoe and a Raleigh record in Kilshenane. See link below

Roger McDonnell

Knockavilla Baptisms May 10, 1834 - Dec. 26, 1880 P.2503
Marriages Jul 10, 1834 - Nov. 15, 1880
_____________________________________________________________________________

http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/tipperary/oughterleague.htm

Hi  Pablo,  This  family  of  Raleigh,  I  have  been  researching  for  some  time.

I  believe  they  would  have  been  related  to  my  gggm  a  Mary  Raleigh  who   was  born  in  the  same  parish  in  the  townland  of  Garrane.

I  would  be  willing  to   exchange  material  with  you  as  I  get  it.

As  Roger  says  records  are  going  on  line  which  should  make  the  research  much  easier.

Christina,  Vol  Irelandxo.

Thankyou for your responses. I have searched the NLI Catholic Church Database and in the Knockavilla Parish records I have found the baptism of Mary Ryan, 23 June 1838, parents Martin Ryan and Eleanora Raleigh, sponsors Philip Ryan and Catherine Raleigh. Also found the baptism record for Catherine Ryan 21 Oct 1840, same parents, sponsors Martin Hacket and Eleanora Ryan. ........ Their brother was born circa 1832 wich predates the parish record which commenced in 1834.

Does this new information help anyone who may have a connection or can add further info.

Regards Paul (Pablo) 

Hi  Paul,  I  will  be  doing  research  on  this  family  because  they  are  related  to  me  .

I  will  let  you  know  what  material  I  find..

I  did  see  them  on  the  shipping  list  and  it  tells  you  a  lot  about  them,  

I  will  try  and  find  out  did  one  of  them  stay  in  Ireland.

Christina  Vol  Irelandxo.

Thankyou Christina. I will be very grateful for anything you discover. My wife and I are planning to travel to Ireland next year (circa June) and it would be exciting to visit places in this area where my ancestors lived or maybe even meet descendants (if any exist). We are meeting descendants on my GGGrandfather's (mother's side) family in Cavan and plan to also scout Cork where my GG Grandparents (father's side) came from. Please stay in touch     Regards Paul (Pablo)

Hi  Paul,  I  will keep researching this, I will let you know how I get on

You may be able to get book  in the Library called A Riot of Ryans,  written by Australian born priest Fr Max Barrett.

Its about all the Ryans who emigrated to AU from Clonoulty co Tipperary in 1850s. It may just include your Ryans, as Clonispoe was about one mile from Clonoulty border,

About one third of the  people in Co Tipperary were, and still  are  called Ryan, most have nicknames.The one thing in your favour the name Martin.

Good luck and God bless.

Christina

Thanks Christina. I will check with our library and see if I can locate the book. A major coincidence (and I am sure only that unless there is a divine hand at work) is that my surname is Barrett also. The Barrett side of the family came from St Finnbars and Cobh Cork.     Paul  

Hi Paul,  It is possible you may also be related to Fr Max Barrett.  Yes we do need a  divine hand at work.

I am researching your Ryan/Raleigh ancestors, and hopefully may find real live relatives  in this beautiful part of Tipperary where I grew up.  Will keep in touch.  Hope you all had nice Christmas.

God bless.   Christina.

Thankyou Christina.

I hope you and your family also had a merry Christmas. I suspect the weather in Ireland was considerably colder than here in Sydney.

It would be wonderful if we could find a modern day link or even just  be able to fill in some of the "blanks" in the family history .

Paul.

Hi Paul,  I found  baptism for James Ryan Dec 1835.   So it would Philip was the eldest and would be called after paternal grandfather.  James was a Raleigh name , so possibly James called after Elenora Raleighs Father.

I have  searched most of the local Graveyards , found no headstones to Ryans Clonaspoe, but will keep tryingI will keep searching and will keep in touch.  

Kindest regards.    Christina.

Hi Pablo, there are lots of Ryans in Tipperary and each family can be identified by their Christian names in this case the Phil/Jim Ryans. My Mum was from Knockavilla, one of three children, Mary (my Mum) Philip and Thomas and their father was James. Ellen Ryan had a sister Catherine and two brothers, John and David. John had two sons, Walter and James and David had a daughter Mary. All the Irish Raleighs are descended from Thomas Raleigh of County Carlow and his parents were Philip Raleigh and Francis Grenville from London and Phillip was Sir Walter Raleigh's grandson. The Cornelius Ryan side are cousins descended from Cornelius Ryan and Dorothy Spenser from Cork and Dorothy was a great grandaughter to the poet Edmund Spenser and Edmund was best friends with Walter Raleigh when Walter Raleigh lived in Cork. Dorothy Spencer married into the Ryan family back somehwere in 1750 and 200 years later my cousin (Leisha Ryan) married back into the Spencers. If you come go Ireland this month you could pop over to London and see Walter Raleigh's tomb in St Margaret's Church, Westminster and Edmund Spenser's grave in Westminster Abbey. I've been studying the Elizabethan conquest of Ireland where it all began. Mary

and her father was James

Hi Pablo, this may be too far back to be interesting but Ellen Ryan's ancestors were:
Sir Walter Raleigh born 1552 in Devon married Bess Throckmorton
Son: Carew Raleigh born 1604 in the Tower of London married Philipa Weston
Grandson: Philip Raleigh born 1652 in London married his cousin Francis Grenville
Great grandson: Thomas Raleigh born 1679 in County Carlow

Further info:

Elisabeth 1 granted Walter Raleigh 40 thousand acres in Cork for his part in the 2nd Desmond Rebellion and Smerwick
He sold his lands to Richard Boyle but didn't get the full value
Bess Raleigh felt Walter was cheated out of lands in Ireland and there should be Raleighs in Ireland so when Walter was beheaed her grandson Philip and his wife moved to Ireland and their children were born there and that started the Irish Raleighs, includiong Ellen Ryan, and Bess got her wish. Mary
 

Hi Peppapig.  I am Christina a volunteer with Ireland reaching out.  I answered some of the queries in this Ryan/Raleigh post.

I have a lot of work done on my Raleigh anceators from townland of Garrane in Knockavilla.  There was a Walter in each family even the ones who emigrated to Australia, every family had the name Walter.  I would be very interested in exchanging material with you.  My email  address is  mallow1@irelandxo.com

Regards.  Christina.

Hi Christina,

Regarding material, most of what I’ve got is from the Tudor Conquest of Ireland taken from English history but it explains why there is a Walter in every Irish Raleigh family.

I learned Irish history at school in Ireland including the Tudor Conquest of Ireland but the names of the invaders were left out; they were just “the English”. Here in England I researched the same Tudor conquest and the names of the invaders were included. And the English version is worse.

At school we learned about battles but English history tells about massacres and widespread slaughter. The English wiped out 90% of the male population of Munster in during  the 2nd Desmond Rebellion in1580 and thousands of Irish people were shipped to Barbados as slaves. You can read about that in “To Hell or Barbados: the Ethnic Cleansing of Ireland” by Sean O’Callaghan.

The Norman (Old English) invasion wasn’t too bad. These were the Roaches, Fitzgeralds, Cusacks, Burkes, Powers, all Roman Catholic and they married into native Irish Catholic families.

But the Reformation changed all that when England tried to make Ireland Protestant and Gerald Fitzgerald (Earl of Desmond) brought 600 troops from Italy and Spain into Smerwick to get England out of Ireland.

But Elizabeth I sent 6,000 troops including Walter Raleigh and his friend Edmund Spenser to sort out Smerwick and confiscate Catholic lands. But on they way to Smerwick they were caught up in the battle of Glenmalure where they lost 800 men including Walter Raleigh’s cousin, Peter Carew.

By the time they got to Smerwick they were in an awful mood resulting in the Smerwick massacre. And with Smerwick out of the way they used scorched earth tactics to wipe out the population of Munster, and Elizabeth I knighted Walter Raleigh for his part in putting down the Desmond rebellion and gave him 40,000 acres of land in Cork as a reward.

Walter Raleigh lived in Youghal for 17 years until he got Alice Gould pregnant, then he sold his lands to Sir Richard Boyle for less than their value and returned permanently to England.

In England he married Queen Elizabeth’s lady-in-waiting (Bess Throckmorton) without Elizabeth’s permission so she chucked them in the Tower of London but they were eventually released.

However, Bess felt that Walter was cheated out of his Irish lands and that the Raleighs were entitled to lands in Ireland but Walter didn’t want to upset his friend, Sir Richard Boyle, and refused to do anything about it.

When Elizabeth died and her cousin James became King, he (James) had Sir Walter Raleigh beheaded for attacking the Spanish in Guyana and also for his part in the Smerwick massacre.

Bess had Walter’s head embalmed and carried it around with her in a purple bag for 19 years until she died, and the head was returned to Walter’s tomb in St Margaret’s, Westminster.

Bess had also persuaded her grandson (Philip Raleigh) who had married his cousin (Francis Grenville) to reclaim lands in Ireland. So Philip and Francis moved to Carlow where Thomas Raleigh and his siblings were born, and from there on came the Irish Raleighs and that is why there is a Walter in every family.

Sir Walter Raleigh’s tomb is in St Margaret’s, Westminster and as a descendant you might like to visit.

His friend (Edmund Spenser) is buried in Poet’s Corner, Westminster Abbey but his descendant (John Spencer) won’t visit and if you look up “A View of the Present State of Ireland” on “Youtube” you will see why.

Edmund Spenser’s great-granddaughter (Dorothy Spenser) married Cornelius Ryan and about 300 years later their descendant (Leisha Ryan) married back into the Spencers.

During the NI troubles a NI historian wrote a book called, “To the People of the Republic of Ireland: you are not who you think you are!” but it was never published.

Hope this is helpful and I would love to know more about the recent Ryan/Raleighs.

Regards, Mary

Does anyone have any documentation on Thomas Raleigh as noted above? He does not show up in the Visitations of Devon as a child of Philip, although I have found several errors in that document. But, it would still be nice to have some type of documentation.

Hi, Paul from Sydney Australia. I am sorry but I can't help with any knowledge about Thomas Raleigh. Anything I know about him I know from the "History" channel as we were not taught English history in any detail at school. As a descendant of a Raleigh/Ryan union with a "Phillip" offspring,  I am naturally very interested if there are any links historically that can be confirmed.

Hi Pablo - for Thomas Raleigh born 1697 in Carlow https://www.geni.com/people/Thomas-Raleigh/6000000020277311820

He had a son Phillip and his parents were Phillip and Frances Raleigh who emigrated to Ireland from London in the 17th century. Below are two of Phillip's many Irish descendants (Phillip and Ellen Ryan) and his ggf, Sir Walter Raleigh.

Mary

Hi again Pablo, tried to upload pics of Sir Walter Raleigh and two of his lookalike Irish descendants but it didn't work. Mary

Hi Pablo, Sir Walter Raleigh also had a descendant (Jack Raleigh) who was a famous Tipperary hurler - played for Emly and won the Munster medal. Are you related to him?

Also, there are English Raleighs and Irish Raleighs. The Irish Raleighs went off the English rador when Phillip and Frances Raleigh emigrated to Ireland in the 17th century. Lots of English emigrated to Ireland over the centuaries - not so much emigrated looking for work but more like land grabbing which didn't make them popular.  But the lands were passed down to their children who born in Ireland therefore Irish which gives rise to the saying that the Irish got their lands back from the English - by inheritance. There is nothing more ambigous than Irish/English history.

Did you know that every child born in Ireland since the Norman invasion was recorded in the Four Courts? Then back in 1922 when Ireland was becoming independant, Oscar Traynor and the IRA blew up the Four Courts to prevent future generations of Irish children discovering their ancestors. IRA member Oscar Traynor whose family emigrated to Ireland from Durham and last Easter they were celebrating 1916 hero Patrick Pearce whose father was a stonemason from Birmingham, but these people will never acknowledge their roots. If you are descended from the Ryan/Raleigh union you are descended from Sir Walter Raleigh who was knighted by Queen Elizabeth 1 for Smerwick and the 2nd Desmond Rebellion. I have read up on the Court of Queen Elizabeth and it's brilliant - much better than Coronation Street. Sorry I was unable to upload the photo of Phillip Ryan who looks like a young Walter Raleigh despite the 500-year age gap.  Mary

Thanks Mary. Nice to know that the odds are in favour of ancestral link to Sir Walter Raleigh. It would be nicer still to be able to prove it but this is not likely. My hopes are that one day I will find descendents from the same branch of the tree as the three Ryan siblings who made the move to Australia and from whom I owe my existence. Would love to visit "family" in Tipperary like I recently did when I visited McCaffrey ancestors of my G Grandfather's older sister in Ballyconnell, Co Cavan.  ........... Who knows what the future holds?      All from me for now. Will continue on the search. Regards from Sydney. Pablo (Paul)

Hi-

Jack Raleigh, the hurler from Emly, Tipperary, was my great uncle. I have been told that my family is connected to Sir Walter Raleigh through Rawleighstown, Limerick (next to Lough Gur).  I read on the internet that Sir Walter Raleigh's uncle built Raleighstown around 1600 and since they were Catholics, Cromwell took it over during his seige, around 1640-50, and gave it to the Croker family. I do not know where my family went from there but 3 graves at Old Knockainey Cemetery connect to my family (Thomas Rawleigh of Mough, Patrick Rawleigh of Mough, and Patrick Raleigh of Duntryleague, found on Historicgraves free website). In about 1830, my Great, Great Grandfather, Patrick Raleigh, and his brother, Thomas Raleigh (he is listed on one of the graves at Old Knockainey), show up in Ballyholohan, Emly. They were leasing from the Ryans. The Ryans later moved them to Drumcomogue, Emly because they needed the land in Ballyholohan for the railroad.

Not sure if this helps you at all- Mary

Pablo-

I know NLI- Catholic Parish Registries is useful and free; but RootsIreland, which requires a payment, I have found sorts the info I am looking for.

Mary

Thanks Mary. I'm not sure if this is helpful or not. Being in Australia I am not conversant with the geography in Ireland. I know our Ryans came from Clonaspoe near Cashel. Where Clonaspoe is in relartion to the locations you mention in your last post I will have to research. I appreciate greatly your interest.

Kindest Regards

Paul (Pablo) from Sydney

Mary (peppapig1552),

Sorry for the year delay. How do you connect to Jack Raleigh, the hurler, descendant of Sir Walter Raleigh? How do you know he is a descendant? It has been suggested by people living in Emly that my family has met but I do not have any physical records.

Thank you- Mary