Probably born in Killannin

Sorry for some reason post did not put in his name
Here it is again
Dudley Stagpoole VC DSM

Hi Janine

I'm afraid I couldn't find any Stackpoole (or surname variants) birth/baptisms with parents John & Honora in Galway or any other county from 1700 to 1900 on www.rootsireland.ie/.

Do you have an approximate birth year for either boy & brother's name?

The Tithe Applotments (free online) have 35 Stackpooles but only 1 in Galway - William - townland Gurteen parish Killeany (no year given)

None of the early Irish Censuses have any Stackpooles; the 1901 does but none in Galway.

None in Galway in Griffiths Valuation either.

Col

Hi Col
I'm not surprised you found nothing we've been searching for years already. What info I have is from British army records and NZ death records.
NZ death records of the elder brother ( Bartholomew who is my ancestor) stated parents names.
Army records state Bartholomew attested to 57th in Jan 1848 at Loughrea Galway and that he was born in Killummen Parish,near Oughterard, Galway Ireland. his approx. date of birth would be c1829.
The next brother, Martin,( born c1833) stated he was born in Kilcromwell Galway ( seems not to exist as with Killunan).
Dudley attested to the 57th in 1853 in Limerick. The family seems to have relocated to Co clare around then as my great grandfather was born c1855 in Co Clare.
It is our understanding that Stackpoole ( alt Stacpoole) is a Norman Irish family name associated mostly with Co Clare.

I suspect it is the O'Malley side that were from Galway.

It is strange to me that all the books articles about Dudley and his war medals never question that he was born in a place that does not exist.
Thanks for your interest.

Hi Janine

I feel the important element here is the religious denomination of the family. The preoccupation of much of the research of Irish families tends to be with Roman Catholic agrarian families and the impression I appear to be under is that the Stackpoole(Stagppol) family in question were primarily military in nature and probably Church of Ireland.

Rootsireland may not be the place to identify possible birth/marriage details if that is the case. I have added an attachment of non catholic parish registers that you may find helpful for further research,

As for the name of his birthplace. You indicate Killannin as a possible birthplace. The tendency was to identify with a particular parish rather than a townland and though Killannin is also a Civil Parish there is another Civil Parish Killinan which is southwest of Loghrea which may spark your interest.

Hi Col

The family were most definitly RC and the father's occupation is in most cases ( on sons wedding records etc) is recorded as labourer and once as a 'farmer'. The sons were illliterate. My ancestor could only mark documents with a cross.

The reason I thought Killannin could be where Dudley said he was born was because it neighbours Oughterard/ Killcummin where  his brother said he was born. One of the issues here is that  because these men were illiterate the army clerks wrote down whatever they interpreted the men to be saying.

Quite a large number of  Irish discharged soliers ended up in NZ and certainly many were Catholic. I would think the numbers of these would have been into the thousands though there were also large numbers of protestant Irish soldiers apparently.

I am sure the parents would have had the children baptized but to date no records have emerged and we've been looking. It is a long time ago and I suspect these records could be lost. Family stories suggest the three brothers joined the army because the family had " lost their land" and had no other option to survive. I don't know the truth of this but certainly they were children during a pretty turbulent time in Ireland.

Thank you for your interest Janine

Hi, The reason I described them as a military family is that a 1950's newspaper report on the families connection to the Middlesex regiment suggested that Dudley was not the first recipient of the VC in the family and one of his sons Michael, grandfather was alao a recipient of the award, be this O'Malley ir Stagpoole it was not stated. Added to this Dudley's second wife (Downe) father was also a recipient of the award. Many Catholics were through economic need left little option but to join the army and some converted to the Anglican Church in Ireland. Whatever truth lies in the family being illiterate and ''lost their land'' many Catholics historically and today bear a lot of resentment towards the English rather than the Irish who were members of the British Army and RIC for the forced evictions and protection of food stores during famine years when millions of native Irish perished. I have come across numerous instances where family history has suggested that their family were of a higher standing in Ireland than they were in order to seek advantage in their new country of residence or hiding an unwelcome truth that may cause offence in some Irish communities and thereby osterise themselves from their own countrymen. It is easier to accept family history rather than challenge it with evidence. Those who were illiterate were not only confined to Catholics but included members of other denominations.

Hi

Thanks for the newspaper article. Interesting but not in any way accurate.

Dudley did have a son Michael Dudley Stagpoole who, along with his elder brother, was effectively bought up by the army as Dudley died (in a London poorhouse) in 1911 when they were both under 10 years. Their mother Marie Lee was committed to a mental asylum soon after the birth of her sons and never got out again. Her father was  a police officer and they were from Co Clare. I know descendents of this branch and there is no other VC in that family. Dudley's second wife was Mary Ann Gillard from a Devon lime burning family no army connection there or VC. Ensign Down won his VC in the same action as Dudley and died a couple of years later in Auckland of Cholera he was a young man and had no wife or children. Dudley certainly didn't marry into that family.

Dudley did have four sons ( from three wives) that is true however the eldest died along with his mother soon after birth. The second son was in the army and died in 1898 Darmali Egypt. The two youngest sons Dudley and Michael were both career army men I believe.

Bartholomew was most definitly illiterate as I have examples of his crosses on a number of documents however Dudley did manage to sign his army discharge record with a very child like signature. I have read the army went through a period of trying to educate some soldiers so I think this is likely where Dudley learned to write his signature. He (as did his brothers) always remained  a Private as he had no education to allow him to move up the ranks despite his VC.

As far as their politics I don't know but Dudley made comments supportive of the Maori in a 1909 article I have read. The Maori of course were colonized and had their lands confiscated for resisting.

I think that these three brothers were not from an army background but joined to get out of the situation in Ireland at the time. They were all sent straight to Crimea. Some descendents of the next two generations also followed into the army or police force here in NZ and also in England (Dudley's family). Some branches remained Catholic and some went protestant depending on who they married.

In NZ most Irish Catholic seem to descend from army families, gold mining families and the children of Irish convicts from Australia. The organized British colonization process ( Known as the NZ Company) seemed to actively attempt to prevent Catholics emigrating.

Enclosed is a newspaper article from the 1980s which is much more accurate. This was after my father reconnected with the Dudley branch of the family.

Thanks for your interest

J

Hi

Thanks for the newspaper article. Interesting but not in any way accurate.

Dudley did have a son Michael Dudley Stagpoole who, along with his elder brother, was effectively bought up by the army as Dudley died (in a London poorhouse) in 1911 when they were both under 10 years. Their mother Marie Lee was committed to a mental asylum soon after the birth of her sons and never got out again. Her father was  a police officer and they were from Co Clare. I know descendents of this branch and there is no other VC in that family. Dudley's second wife was Mary Ann Gillard from a Devon lime burning family no army connection there or VC. Ensign Down won his VC in the same action as Dudley and died a couple of years later in Auckland of Cholera he was a young man and had no wife or children. Dudley certainly didn't marry into that family.

Dudley did have four sons ( from three wives) that is true however the eldest died along with his mother soon after birth. The second son was in the army and died in 1898 Darmali Egypt. The two youngest sons Dudley and Michael were both career army men I believe.

Bartholomew was most definitly illiterate as I have examples of his crosses on a number of documents however Dudley did manage to sign his army discharge record with a very child like signature. I have read the army went through a period of trying to educate some soldiers so I think this is likely where Dudley learned to write his signature. He (as did his brothers) always remained  a Private as he had no education to allow him to move up the ranks despite his VC.

As far as their politics I don't know but Dudley made comments supportive of the Maori in a 1909 article I have read. The Maori of course were colonized and had their lands confiscated for resisting.

I think that these three brothers were not from an army background but joined to get out of the situation in Ireland at the time. They were all sent straight to Crimea. Some descendents of the next two generations also followed into the army or police force here in NZ and also in England (Dudley's family). Some branches remained Catholic and some went protestant depending on who they married.

In NZ most Irish Catholic seem to descend from army families, gold mining families and the children of Irish convicts from Australia. The organized British colonization process ( Known as the NZ Company) seemed to actively attempt to prevent Catholics emigrating.

Enclosed is a newspaper article from the 1980s which is much more accurate. This was after my father reconnected with the Dudley branch of the family.

Thanks for your interest

J

Hi, Returning back to the issue at hand. As has been suggested the only reference in Galway to a Stackpoole(Stagpool) is in the Civil Parish of Killeany (Cill ?inne in Irish) in the townland Gortrory or Rogersfield , under the Tithes which were compiled between 1823-1837. Gortrory is about 16 km from the main centre of population Oughterard in the Civil Parish of Kilcummin (See attachment) .

The Civil Parish of Killannin is a large expanse from Lough Corrib to the Atlantic Ocean covering a desolate area of bog and hills and is adjacent to Kilcummin Civil Parish. Catholic Parish records for Oughterard Catholic Parish date from 1809, Killannin Catholic Parish 1834(births) and unfortunately the parish in which Gortrory is located the Parish of Killursa and Killower date from 1880. These records are due to go online free in July 2015 and it will require thorough searching of the first two to identify the births/baptisms you are aware of and possibly any occurrence of the name Stackpoole as a sponsor or witness to identify a possible year they became actively involved in parish affairs of other families.

There will be gaps in some of the records that come online. The total absence of any evidence of baptisms to date may point to Killursa/Killower being the place of birth or you may have been unlucky with all life events being lost/destroyed in the two parishes with the earlier dated records.

Hi
I had heard that more records were soon to go online. I'm not holding my breath but I maybe lucky. At the moment I know all three brothers stated they were born in Galway and Bartholomew only gives an identifiable place of birth.

The information re the parishes is interesting I have a lot of trouble understanding Irish geographic (?) divisions ie townlands, baronies and parishes.

I believe there were Stackpooles in a place called Rahoon near Galway city around this time also.

J

Hi,

An oversight I made was possibly to give the impression that the records for Killursa and Killower would be part of the July 2015 release. They in fact will not as the NLI who are releasing the parish records never actually microfilmed the records and those that are available are from the LDS microfilms.

The various Catholic parishes in Galway are shown in the two links. To find out what will be made available just click on the parish name and the resulting table identifies the various repositories of microfilmed/transcribed records. Those which are to be released are from the NLI (National Library of Ireland) which tend to have a cut off date in the early 1800?s. Only a few actually extend to the 1900 period.
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/galwaywrc.htm
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/galwayerc.htm

I have looked at Bart. Records on FMP (military) and it appears to be Kilcummin (Oughterard) Parish which is stated. Rahoon is an area to the west of Galway City proper and should fall into Castlegar/Galway City. I have looked at the cemetery records for Forthill Cemetery in Galway which has burials recorded back to the 1780?s and there is no evidence of the name. There is both a new and Old Rahoon graveyards which may when/if surveyed provide an answer.

Perhaps muddying the waters here, but attached is a shot of STACKPOLE'S BRIDGE, located north of Quilty in County Clare.

in

Hi,

Killannin parish birth records date from 1875. Some marriages are recorded from 1864, but many are not.

While Killannin Roman Catholic parish was under the jurisdiction of the Parish Priest at Headford (Kilursa)

1860 to 1890 it had a Curate/Administrator allocated to it.

Records for Killannin (Spiddal) are Church of Ireland (see: Protestant Mission in Connemara - 1848 - 1937 by

Mirriam Moffit - 2008)

Kilconnell Civil Parish is situated between Loughrea and Ballinasloe in the Union of Ballinasloe.