Looking for Mitchell Magee

Hi Maureen

I wonder do you have the marriage cert.  The details are on FindMyPast.ie so you can request a copy of the certficate which might provide further information.  The details you need to request the certificate are:

Marriage Cert for Mitchell Magee and Eliza Ann Wilson, Londonderry, 1847, volume 7 page 239.

Regards

Linda Magee

Hi Linda

No, I haven't got the actual certificate, but gleaned the information from various genealogy websites, etc.  I note that although they married in 1847, it would appear that their daughter, Anne/Ann, wasn't born until 1864, so there might be a discrepancy here.  Haven't been able to find other children from the marriage, but that doesn't mean there weren't any, of course.  I know that Mitchell's father was called Samuel Magee,   Mitchell was recorded as a ship's carpenter at time of marriage.  Witnesses were George Wilson (bride's father) and William Steen.  Do you think I should still order the certificate?

So grateful for your help.

Maureen

Maureen,

Statutory registration of births didn?t start in Ireland till 1864, so the couple may well have had other children between 1847 and 1864, but you won?t get birth certificates for any of them. They?ll only be on rootsireland if they were baptised in a parish whose records are on that site. (They don?t have all church records. Not by a long shot).

Elwyn

Hi Maureen

Certificates are always worth having even if they don't provide anything extra, they can at least confirm what you believe to be true.

Also, I just found a death record for a Samuel Mitchell Magee, Londondery

Samuel Mitchell Magee born abt 1847
Died Oct-Nov-Dec 1880
Age 33
Where: Londonderry
volume 2
page 139
 

A possible son of Mitchell and Eliza?  Another certificate worth looking at.

Do you know if the family where COI?

I will search about for more info.

Regards

Linda

Kildare Town Parish Liaison

Hi again Maureen

I realised you said in your first post that it was a CoI church, St Columb's in Londonderry.  If this is the cathedral you can contact them directly and ask them about a genealogical search based on the information you have i.e. Mitchel and Eliza married in 1847 - would they have any details of this, and then do they have any records of children born to them and baptised in the cathedral.  The main website is:

http://www.stcolumbscathedral.org/index.html

and they have a dedicated email for genealogical queries: stcolumbs@ic24.net

Let me know what you think and if I can be of any furher help.

All the best.

Linda

Hi Again!

Just did a search on Griffiths Valuation (askaboutireland.ie) and found Samuel Magee, Jane Magee, Eliza Magee and an Anne Steen all listed as renting land in the Culmore townland of Templemore, Londonderry.  Definitely worth a look at.

Linda

Hi Linda

My word, you have been busy and so very helpful.  I didn't know about Samuel Mitchell Magee, born 1847, so I will check him out.  Also, Samuel Magee, Jane Magee, Eliza Magee and ANNE STEEN - I will look at that one, (perhaps Eliza is Mitchell's wife - I wonder where he is!) and one of the witnesses at Mitchell and Eliza's wedding St Columb's C of I, Templemore, 1847, was a WILLIAM STEEN, so I am sure you are on the right track - will look at that too.  Will also contact St Columb's Cathedral, as you suggested.  I can't tell you how much help you have been to me - brilliant. 

Once again, Linda, a big THANK YOU.  

Maureen

Hi Linda

Got in touch with St Columb's cathedral and this is their reply - I just have to adopt patience in the interim!!

"Hi. All our registers are with the Public Record Office for Northern Ireland at the moment. They are digitizing them. We expext to have them back in the Cathedral in late March. If you would like to contact me then, I'll do my best to help.

Regards

Ian"

Just thought I would let you know.

Regards.

Maureen

Hi Maureen

Thanks for the update.  I realise it's a pain having to wait but it's great news that the PRONI are digitizing the records.  That might mean they make them available online but if not, at least they are recorded for future generations.  I am actually married to a Magee from County Down so I am often up North visiting relatives and should a visit to the PRONI be required I should be able to get there and do some searching for you.

To their credit the PRONI have also made freely available online the Valuation Revision Books for the North of Ireland.  These are a follow on from the Griffiths Valuations that documented the rate payers for every house and property in Ireland in the 1840's.  The Revision Books are follow on documents that show updates of who was paying the rates for each property and when that changed as a result of a death or someone moving on.  These details are recorded with different coloured pens used to cross out names and record new names and details.  The colours correspond to different years and sometimes the year is noted in the last column.

So in your case if you consider the names we found in Griffiths Valuation ? Samuel, Jane and Eliza Magee and Anne Steen ? you can search for them and see their details in the revision books.  This information can help to identify when a person died e.g. if Samuel Magee appears in the Revision Books up to 1898 and then his name is crossed out and replaced you could assume this was because he died that year and then you would be able to search for a death record in that year or the preceding year.  I hope I am explaining this clearly and it is making sense.  If you have a look it will become clearer.

Go to: http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_Val12b/Search.aspx
Type in Culmore for the place name, Londonderry for County and Templemore for parish and click search.

You will see a list of records returned with the PRONI Reference highlighted in blue on the right hand side.  Click on the first one.

Then click on Index Image and move your mouse over the image of the book and find Culmore in the list.  You will see a page number written beside it.  This number relates to the hand written number that appears in the top right hand corner of the actual book.  Jump forward through the pages til you get to the right one. 

In the first book VAL/12/B/32/8A you will find your names on page 37.  You will see Jane Magee is crossed out and her land has been added to Samuel Magee?s.  You will also see that Eliza Magee?s name has ?Anne? inserted above to indicate the full name of Eliza Anne Magee ? which ties in nicely with your original details.

From here you can move onto the following volumes and do the same thing to find the record of the Magee?s and Steen?s.  The last volume I found them in was 8F.  You will also see in this volume the LAP stamp which means Land Act Purchase.

I will stop there!  That?s loads for you to have a look at and take in.  I hope it?s of use.  I certainly found it very interesting.  One last thing, I think Mitchell Magee must have died pre 1850 as I did not see any reference to him in these books, only Eliza Anne Magee.

Any questions, just let me know.

All the best.
Linda Magee

Kildare Parish Liaison

Hi Linda

Wow - I wish I had your knowledge and no-how!!!  Thank you so much - I will certainly be having a look at all you suggest.  It certainly is very interesting.  I have been looking for Mitchell Magee for so many years without success (I live on the south coast in Hampshire, England, which makes it even more difficult).  I often wondered as he was quoted as being a ship's carpenter if he travelled away on ships, but that is just a theory I held.  Yesterday, I found an Eliza Ann Magee of Culmore County, Londonderry, who died on 12 November 1900 (Will 10/01/1901), £45.00 to Robert Magee, Master Mariner, but haven't taken it further.  As it is such a foul day here, I think I will sit down and search further; certainly everything you have suggested.  Yes please, one day I most probably would be grateful for a "look up" when you visit the north and thank you so much for the offer - I promise not to burden you.

Again, Linda, thank you, thank you, thank you!

Regards.

Maureen

Hi Linda

Just re-visited the family tree again!  Until I can get the info from St Columb's I appreciate it will be difficult, but if we are right in assuming that Samuel Mitchell Magee born 1847 is a son of Mitchell and Eliza, see below, and Anne Magee was born around 1864 or 1873/4 (see below) (? Co Armagh) so presumably Mitchell was still alive then and hadn't died before 1850.  I have attached a few bits for you to look at as it probably makes it easier!

Marriage: Mitchell Magee to Eliza Anne Wilson, 19 January 1847, St Columb's, County Derry, C of I, his father 'Samuel Magee' ; her father ' George Wilson'.  Witnesses: George Wilson and William Steen. Mitchell's occupation was given as 'ship's carpenter'.

Samuel Mitchell Magee:

Birth about 1847 in Londonderry, Northern Ireland; death 1880 in Londonderry, Northern Ireland. 1859 residence - Templemore. Citations: Ireland, Civil Registration Deaths Index 1864 - 1958 and Ireland, Griffith's Valuation 1848 - 1864

Anne Magee:

Birth about 1864 (or ? 1873/4), ? County Armagh

Marriage to Lindsay (John) Shaw (age 18), clerk

Anne's age is given as "28", although her burial record suggest she was 43 and not 52, making her roughly the same age as Lindsay, so whether "28" was an error or not, I am not sure. Her occupation was given as 'servant'.

Lindsay is living at 5 Douglas Street and Anne at 64 Apsley Street, Belfast.

Both C of I

Husband's father: Robert Shaw, cabinet maker

Wife's father: Mitchell Magee, carpenter

Witnesses: William Cluff and Julia McCartney

Citation: Ireland, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1845 - 1958

So, I still wonder if Mitchell Magee was "away" if he was a ship's carpenter, but don't how to check this.  Again, grateful for your thoughts on that.

Regards.

Maureen

Hi Maureen

Do you have a birth or baptism record for Anne Magee?  Looking at the dates it occurs to me that she could be the Granddaughter of Mitchell Magee and the daughter of Samuel Mitchell Magee (died 1880).  It is of course possible that she is Mitchell and Anne's daughter but it's worth considering.  Church records would ideally help clarify this.

As I am currently studying Genealogy in college I am coming across sources of information that are new to me and so my latest find is the Estate Papers that include, among other things, rent rolls.  I beleive PRONI holds this type of information for Londonderry and it would be something I could look at for you when I can next get to PRONI.  There may be some record of the Magee's in Culmore.

Just one more thing. If possible, and if you don't mind, could you email copies of the certs you have.  It would really help me.

Thanks

Linda

Hi Linda

Apologies for delay in replying, have only just picked up your message.  I take your point about Anne possibly being granddaughter of Mitchell.  I do have a certificate for Mitchell's marriage to Eliza, but only a printout from rootsireland re Anne Magee's marriage to Lindsay Shaw.  Please see attached.

Well done you for studying Geneaology - if only I had my time over again.  You know that any help, information, etc, is greatly appreciated by me and, of course, any look-ups on my behalf when visiting PRONI is such a bonus - I can't thank you enough.  Let me know what you think re attachments.

Kindest regards.

Maureen

Hi Linda

Just had yet another look at the Magee/Shaw family.  

Re Annie Shaw (nee Magee)

Buried Grave B249 City Cemetery, Belfast, along with her children, Robert Lindsay Shaw, Alexander Lindsay Shaw and William Shaw.  Her age is given as 43, suggesting her DOB is 1873, but as we know, her marriage certificate to Lindsay Shaw suggests 1863/64 (age 28).

Her other daughter, Jane Winifred Shaw, is buried Grave T1821 Roselawn Cemetery, Belfast, along with Lindsay and Annie's niece, Caroline Whiteside.

I cannot find a buriel for their other son, Robert Shaw, born 1908/died 1922.

Censuses: 23 and 30 Roundhill Street, Pottinger (Down)

1901 census:  Annie's age is given as 25 (i.e. 1876); in 1911 census it is given as 40 (i.e. 1871), but both censuses state that her place of birth was County Armagh and the wife of John (Lindsay) Shaw.  It seems she varied her age somewhat, which doesn't help matters!!

Best wishes.

Maureen

Hi Linda

Just had yet another look at the Magee/Shaw family.  

Re Annie Shaw (nee Magee)

Buried Grave B249 City Cemetery, Belfast, along with her children, Robert Lindsay Shaw, Alexander Lindsay Shaw and William Shaw.  Her age is given as 43, suggesting her DOB is 1873, but as we know, her marriage certificate to Lindsay Shaw suggests 1863/64 (age 28).

Her other daughter, Jane Winifred Shaw, is buried Grave T1821 Roselawn Cemetery, Belfast, along with Lindsay and Annie's niece, Caroline Whiteside.

I cannot find a buriel for their other son, Robert Shaw, born 1908/died 1922.

Censuses: 23 and 30 Roundhill Street, Pottinger (Down)

1901 census:  Annie's age is given as 25 (i.e. 1876); in 1911 census it is given as 40 (i.e. 1871), but both censuses state that her place of birth was County Armagh and the wife of John (Lindsay) Shaw.  It seems she varied her age somewhat, which doesn't help matters!!

Best wishes.

Maureen

Hi Linda

Another idea!!  I have found an Anne Jane Magee, baptised 17/08/1872, born, 16/08/1872; address: workhouse, Lurgan, Armagh.  Father not recorded; mother: Jane Magee.  Sponsor: James Craig.

Could it be that Anne Magee was the daughter of Jane, who might be the daughter of Mitchell and Eliza Anne Magee and they brought her up as their daughter.  Looking at the Griffiths Valuation, we did find Samuel, Jane and Eliza Anne Magee, plus Anne Steen.  I wonder who Jane was; could she be the mother of Annie Magee?  James Craig also pops up in the valuation, but don't know what the connection is.  Probably just a longshot, but wondered what your thoughts were..

Regards.

Maureen

HI Maureen

It is possible that Anne Jane Magee, born in Lurgan Workhouse is your Annie but it is worth bearing in mind that when I searched Find My Past for Anne Magee born in Armagh in 1874 +/- 2 years I get 7 possible matches.  Unfortunately Anne and Jane Magee are quite common names.  I think if we look at something we know is correct it might give us another clue i.e. Samuel Mitchel Magee died 1880.  If you get the death cert it might give an informants name, perhaps his wife - don't think we have this.  What do you think?

Certainly a trip into the GRO in Belfast would make finding the correct Annie a bit easier and might reduce the cost.  As I'm sure you know you could be looking at 7 possibilites for one person and it is too expensive to order all those certs and then discover they were all wrong!  The GRO charges ?14 for 6 hours searching with 2 verifications included in that and then each verification after that is ?4.  How it works is you can search the indexes online very quickly and when you think you've found the correct entry you can choose to look at the details from the certificate on screen (verification) which gives you all the details you need.  A printed copy of the cert is ?6.

As I've said before I'd be happy to pop along for you next time I'm up North.  You could have a think beforehand of what exactly you'd like to verify or find before I go.  A bit more research should help narrow down things.

I'm also looking at Wills, I know you did too.  I think there might be some usefull info in them as well.

That's it for now I think.  Let me know what you think.

Regards

Linda

Hi Linda

Yes, I went through about five possibles for Anne on rootsireland, looking at Armagh, but no exact match and certainly nothing with Mitchell as a father, and of course there were a host of other Annes in other areas.  I will do as you suggest and order Samuel's death certificate to see what that throws up and then let you know.  A trip to Belfast sounds like the way forward - if and when you do go, I will need to send you the money for doing so and the search, so you will need to let me know how I do that, if that is OK with you.  However, in the meantime, I will order the certificate and keep my fingers crossed that it gives us a bit more info.

Bye for now.

Maureen

Hi Linda

I have been attempting to order the death certificate for Samuel Mitchell Magee, but because I don't have the actual date of death, only Oct - Dec 1880 for death and c1847 for birth, it keeps throwing the application back at me!  I have tried all sorts of permutations, but to no avail. Are you aware of any ways around this problem?  Sorry to bother you with something that I thought was going to be easy.

Best wishes.

Maureen

Hi Maureen

I assume you are trying to order it online?  I have only ever got them in person and you only need the index entry details, year, quarter, District, page and volume etc., not the actual date of death.  You also have to specify the type of certificate you need.  The actual date of death is not given in the index so as you know you can't give it!

However I know you can write to the GRO in Roscommon with the index entry details and a cheque or postal order for ?4 and they'll post it back.  Just make sure to state you want a copy of the certificate.  Make sure to give the following details:

Type of Certificate, Name, Year, Quarter, District, Page and Volume number.

The address is:

     General Register Office,

     Government Office

     Convent Road

     Roscommon

I hope this helps.

Let me know how you get on.

Linda

Yes, thank you Linda.  I'll get on and do that.  Will let you know what it throws up once I have received the cert.

Maureen

Hi Maureen

I was watching an old episode of Who Do You Think You Are? the other night (very exciting I know!) and it was David Suchet whose ancestors included a Master Mariner.  And this got me thinking about one of your previous posts about a Will and and some money being left to Robert Magee, Master Mariner.  Anyway, Ancestry.co.uk has records for: UK and Ireland, Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850-1927 so I did a search and found Robert Magee, Only Mate Certificate # 07838, 21/02/1880, born c.1849, Culmore, address in 1880: 18 Dock Street Belfast.  He appears to have obtained his Masters Certificate in 1889.  There is also lots of other information about his years of service.  Do you have access to Ancestry.co.uk to look at these records?

Obviously there is a chance that this Robert Magee is related to Mitchell Magee, possibly a son?  Hopefully the PRONI will answer this question.

All the best.

Linda

Hi Linda

Ha-ha - I do exactly the same when I get the chance and if I can keep awake long enough when it is on very late.  I absolutely love the programme, but sometimes get a bit cross when they have access to so many researchers and make it all look so easy!!!  Still, it is very enjoyable, particularly when it is someone really interesting.

Yes, I do have access to Ancestry.  I did find a Masters Certificate, but didn't pick up on other info about his years of service, so I will check that out.  Just going to post letter to GRO at Roscommon re Samuel Mitchell Magee and awaiting a birth certificate for Anne Magee (mother Jane, no father given, born in the workhouse), just to see what that shows up.  It might all be coincidence, of course, but after her marraige to (John) Lindsay Shaw, Annie named her only daughter 'Jane Winifred'.  Anyway, hopefully it will arrive in the next couple of days.  

One other thing, some of John and Annie's children died very young and are buried in Belfast City Cemetery - grave owner Mrs Jane Wilson. Annie herself is buried in the same plot owned by Mrs Jane Wilson. It is interesting that Annie's mother's maiden name was Eliza Ann Wilson before her marriage to Mitchell Magee. (if the record is correct and she is not the Annie born in the workhouse!).  I have email Belfast City Cemetery and provided them with the date and number of the grant, in the hope that they will look it up and perhaps be able to tell me who Mrs Jane Wilson was.  We'll see.

Will be in touch again as soon as I have any news.

Best wishes.

Maureen

Hi Linda

Just thought I would quickly update you.  Still waiting for death certificate for Samuel Mitchell Magee.  However, I did receive the birth certificate for "Anne Magee" born in the workhouse, but I am pretty certain now that it is not my Anne Magee.  Also, heard back from Belfast Cemeteries, but unfortunately they do not hold records of "grave owners", so Mrs Jane Wilson still remains a mystery at present.

Best wishes.

Maureen

Hi Maureen

Thanks for the update.  It's a shame the 2 last things you looked for didn't work out but there is a small amount of value in ruling things out.  I hope PRONI will hold the answers you need.  I will be heading up north next month, around the 15th March, so if you want to put together a list of things you would like to investigate that would be great.  Put everything you'd like on the list (as much as you like) and I'll do my best to get through it all.

Bye for now

Linda

Hi Linda

Ooh, that sounds good.  OK, I will put together a list and try not to make it too long!!  Please let me know if I need to send you some money for any look-ups or expenses you will incur.  I will be in touch shortly (hopefully, I will receive the death certificate for Samuel Mitchell Magee within the next few days), so will be able to update you.  

Chat soon.

Maureen

Hi Maureen

Just sent you an email.  Hope you got it.

Linda

Hi Maureen

Dissapointing news.  I was just checking the opening hours for PRONI and they are not actually open next Monday as it's St Patricks Day.  It's a bank holiday here in the Republic but I thought it didn't apply up the North.  Am really sorry about this as it means I won't be able to do the research this weekend. 

However, I might be able to get to the cemeteries you mentioned in a previous post and have a look for the graves you have details for.  Do you already have photos of these or would you like me to try to get them for you?  There is the possibility that there is no headstone etc. but it might be worth a look.

All the best

Linda

Hi Linda

Firstly, apologies for delay in replying - we are away at the moment and today is the first day I have been able to access the internet - so frustrating.  Not to worry about not being able to do research, can't be helped.  Regarding cemeteries, if I give you a list of names, etc, I will leave it up to you which you might want to look for, but I don't want to put you to a lot of work, especially if you have your own research to do. The names I have got are:

ANNE SHAW (nee Best) died 28 January 1920 - buried Dundonald Cemetery, E6 70 (my grandmother)

? ROBERT SHAW born c1840, died c1901 (husband of above) - no other info on him (my grandfather).

ANNE (ANNIE) SHAW (nee Magee) died 18/09/1916 - buried Belfast City Cemetery, B2 249

ALEXANDER LINDSAY SHAW, died 15/09/1925 - buried Belfast City Cemetery, B2 249

ROBERT LINDSAY SHAW, died 26/11/1893 - buried Belfast City Cemetery, B2 249

Grave B2 249 was owned by Jane Wilson.  She is a relative of Annie Shaw (nee Magee), but not sure where she fits in.

Thank you, I would love photos of graves if there are headstones, but as I say, I don't want to burden you too much, so I will be very happy with anything you uncover.  Once again, apologies for delay.  As we are not at home at the moment (back next Monday), I am hoping the death certificate of Samuel Mitchell Magee will be on the doormat.

Many thanks, Linda.

All the best and good hunting!!

Maureen

Hi Maureen

I made it up to City Cemetery in Belfast today.  It's a lovely old cemetery with a mix of headstones, monuments and plots.  Unfortunately there are alot of headstones that are overgrown, fallen down and in general disrepair, but I did find a plot with the name Shaw (although you can only read 'HAW' on the name plate, you can see where it must have had an 'S' at the start).  It is in the correct section B2 but I am unable to say for definite it is your Shaws as I could not find the plot number on it or in fact on most of the headstones.  The graves are not laid out in neat rows as you'd expect but seem to be almost random at times in their alignment to each other so finding the correct plot was impossible.  A call to the cemetery office might help.

I have attached some photos of the plot with the name Shaw and a couple of examples of other graves showing why it was difficult to find yours.  There is a headstone completely overgrown with ivy and the second plot has a tree growing out of the grave right in front of the headstone.

Linda

Hi Linda

My word, what a sad state of repair, as you say, so sad.  I suppose there hasn't been family for many years who would have taken care of the graves.  Thank you so much for taking the time to go hunting for me and for the photos; it is greatly appreciated.  Later this year I am hoping to visit Belfast again (with my daughter), so perhaps I can find out a bit more from the cemetery records, plots, etc.  It is possible that by then I will know a bit more about the Magees, too.

Received a copy of Samuel Mitchell Magee's death certificate.  I am still left in a bit of a muddle over him - he could still be Mitchell and Eliza's son, but the informant was 'Samuel Magee'.  Mitchell's father was called Samuel Magee (from Culmore), so it is possible that he was in fact the informant.  Below are the details of the death certificate. 

Superintendent Registrar's District - Londonderry.  Registrar's District - Kilderry.  1880 - deaths registered in the district of Kilderry in the Union of Londonderry in the Counties of Derry and Donegal.

No. 213.  Date and place of death: 17 December 1880, Culmore.  Name: Samuel Mitchell Magee.  Sex: Male.  Condition: Bachelor.  Age last birthday: 33 years.  Occupation: Labourer.  Certified cause of death and duration of illness: Melancholia, 11 years, uncertified, no medical attendant.  Informant: Samuel Magee (his mark), present at death, Culmore.  Registered: 22 December 1880.

As Samuel Mitchell Magee was born in 1847, it does tie in with the marriage year for Mitchell and Eliza, but I suppose there is a remote possibility that he could be another son of Samuel Magee Snr.

Do you know if the "full certificate" would have provided more information?  If so, I will order it.

Anyway, many thanks for your hard work; I hope you also had a successful search for your own family history and I didn't take up all your time in Belfast.  I will let you know if I uncover anything more!!!

Regards.

Maureen

Hi Maureen

How sad, he died of melancholia.  A term most likely to be associated with depression or perhaps manic depression.  Regarding the certificate there won't be a 'full cert'.  I'm afraid that's it.  To get any more information and understand who's who the church records need to be looked at, so that trip to PRONI is vital.  I do think though that Samuel Mitchell Magee is Mitchell Magees son and Samuels grandson.

If you do make it over to Belfast let me know in advance and perhaps we could meet up.  Not much else I can do for you at the moment but as soon as I get a chance to get to PRONI I'll be in touch.

Bye for now.

Linda

Hi Linda

Yes, I thought it was sad too - not something I expected to see.  I also think you are right in that he was Mitchell's son.  I will get in touch again with St Columb's C of I at the beginning of April, when the registers should be back from indexing, just to see what it throws up, but definitely a trip to PRONI is needed and I will, of course, let you know and it would be great to meet up.  Keep in touch and thank you once again (a hundred times over!) for all your help, thoughts and ideas.

Very best wishes.

Maureen