Irvine/ward

Let us have what details you have for the people you know lived in Ireland with approximate years for their births, emigration, marriages etc. Plus also their precise denomination if you know it, and their occupations.

Without having that overview it’s hard to advise where to look.

These are both common names in Co. Down. Looking at the 1901 census there were 478 Wards and 749 Irvine (and variant spellings) in the county, so the more detail you can give the better.

Hi Elwyn
Hans Irvine and Isabella Ward were married in Killinchy on 5th April 1862 and then came to Scotland around 1869. Half of their children were born in Killyleagh and then other half in Scotland. Hans Irvine parents were Thomas Irvine and Jane Lang married in Presbyterian church of Killinchy and Kilmud in 1829i haven't found births for either of them. I was fortunate enough to have found Isabella parents on the 1881 Scottish census. William Ward and Jane Kirk married on 7th Oct 1835 Presbyterian church, Killinchy and Kilmud. William Wards parents were Thomas Ward and Mary McCreadie abt 1795. Jane Kirks parents were William Kirk and Mary McIllwraith abt 1795. This information came from William Ward and Jane Kirks death certificates. How do I proceed in searching further back? Will I find records for 1800 and before?
Another thing that has always puzzled me is the Christian name Hans. My grandfather was named Hans and when I asked him he said it came from a Dutch farmer!

Many thanks for any advice you can offer.

Marlyn

Marlyn,

The easy part of your query is to explain where the name Hans probably came from. Not a Dutch farmer.  Your ancestor will likely have been named after Sir Hans Sloane who came from Killyleagh (near where your Hans was born). He was a famous polymath – a doctor, a collector, the inventor of drinking chocolate,  a friend of Sir Isaac Newton and he moved in scientific circles. Sloane Square in London is named after him and his personal collection was the starting point for the British Museum. His was the first big public donation so the museum was created to house them. Folk around Killinchy & Killyleagh remain proud of him today. Lots of children in that area were named Hans after him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Sloane

I can see 5 children born to Hans & Isabella in Ireland between 1864 and 1870, suggesting the family’s move to Scotland must have been after that. If they are in the 1871 Scottish census then you have a fairly good idea of when they moved. Between August 1870 and April 1871.

William Irvine 8.4.1864 at Killinikan

Henery Irvin 9.2.1865 at Greengraves

Robert Irvine 28.2.1867 at Killinikan

James Irvine 31.3.1869 at Killinchy

Hans Irvine 12.8.1870 at Killinikan

Labourers often moved around to follow available work, so the changes in their townland and their ultimate move to Scotland follows a well worn path for Irish labourers.

Killinikan today is on the Whiterock Rd, near Daft Eddy’s pub on Sketrick Island, in Strangford Lough.

Statutory birth registration started in Ireland in 1864. Prior to that you need to rely on church records. Not all churches have records very far back and the records that do exist are not always on line.

You know that your family were Presbyterian and probably used Killinchy Presbyterian. I say probably because tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, after which she’d attend her husband’s.  But if the Irvine family did attend church in Killinchy then the Presbyterian records there go back to 1812. Those records are slightly complicated because there was a schism in Killinchy Presbyterian in 1835 with half the congregation remaining “mainstream” Presbyterian and the other half becoming Non Subscribing Presbyterians (sometimes known as Unitarians). The NSP church holds the baptism & marriage records from 1812 to 1835 (and beyond, for their congregation), and the mainstream Presbyterian church (who built a new church) has their own set of records from 1835 onwards. There was yet another Presbyterian church nearby at Raffey but it doesn’t have any records earlier than 1843. The 2 sets of records that cover 1812 onwards are not on-line anywhere so far as I can tell. There are copies of both in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast but a personal visit is required to view them.

You’ll probably struggle to get back much further than 1800. Most researchers in Ireland call it the 1800 barrier. The lack of earlier records makes further research pretty difficult, especially if, as in this case, the family were labourers. Their lives largely passed by below officialdom’s radar. Of course, given that they were Presbyterian, lived in Co Down and had a Scottish surname, you can fairly safely conclude that their ancestors arrived in Co Down from Scotland in the 1600s.

Thomas Irvine and Jane Lang were almost certainly born before 1812 so you are unlikely to find a baptism record for them, unless they came from another congregation which has older records. If they died in Ireland after 1864 you should find death certificates for them, but if they died before that there may be no record. If Thomas was also a labourer then he’s unlikely to have been able to afford a gravestone. The Ward family appear to have moved to Scotland so you know what happened to them but tracing their births if prior to 1812 may again be difficult.

Hi Elwyn

Thank you so much for your help and valuable information. I guess Sir Hans Sloane was a celebrity in his day ,having children named after him. This does make sense though.

I have the marriage certificate for Hans and Isabella, it says married in the church of Killinchy. (United church of England and Ireland).

I never found them on the 1871 Scotland census,they first appear in 1881 but without sons James and Hans, so I've assumed that maybe both died in childhood.

If I look for death certificates what information would it give? ( Parents names, age, address?)

I have read a little about the " plantations"  and had an idea that they were originally Scottish.  Apart from encouraging  a Male relation to submit y-DNA to a one name genealogy project I wont get much further.

However now that you've given me dates and details of records available it will save me lots of time and effort.

I also have many other Irish surnames that I need to investigate further.

Kind regards 

Marlyn 

I can see what is surely James’ death registered on 26.4.1869 aged 0.  That death cert is not on-line free yet and if you want to view it you would need to pay to see it on the GRONI website. Irish death certificates do not contain as much information as Scottish ones. You should be able to tell whether it’s the right one by the location and probably the informant. (Likely to be the mother or father). You’ll get the child’s name, sex, marital status, place of death, age, cause of death and the informant’s details, plus the date it was registered.

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

I can’t see Hans death in the Irish records.