Any information will help

Note that there are two townlands called Legananny in Co Down. One is in Drumgooland and the other in Aghaderg parish.

Legananny, Drumgooland falls within the civil registration area of Banbridge. I searched for the death of Esther Armstrong, in Banbridge 1864 to 1870 but did not find it. However 1864 was the first year of death registration and not every death was registered in the early years, so that?s not conclusive either way. Since they were apparently Church of Ireland, you may find their burial dates in the church reocrds.

Likewise I searched for John Armstrong?s death in 1873 but did not find a match. The nearest I could see in the period 1864 to 1884 was one who died 1866, est year of birth 1782. (Vol 1, page 184).

What looks to be Robert Armstrong?s death was registered in Banbridge Jan ? Mar 1889 Vol 1, page 136. Est year of birth 1818.

What looks to be William Armstrong?s death was registered in Banbridge Jan ? Mar 1909 Vol 1, page 114. Est year of birth 1822.

What looks to be Mary Armstrong?s death was registered in Banbridge Apr ? Jun 1916 Vol 1, page 95. Est year of birth 1826.

What looks like William Armstrong?s marriage to Mary Martin was registered in Banbridge in 1846 Vol 2, page 403.

What looks to be Susannah Martin?s death was registered in Banbridge Jul ? Sept 1910 Vol 1, page 80. Est year of birth 1824.

You can order a photocopy from GRO Roscommon for ?4 per certificate. Put the place, year, quarter (where there is one), volume & page number on the application form (anywhere). http://www.groireland.ie/ You have to post or fax the form to them but they will e-mail the copy certificate to you if you wish. Put ?please e-mail to?..? clearly on the top of the form.

I searched for probate files for Armstrong of Legananny. I found the following abstracts (summaries):

Full Abstract :

Armstrong James of Legananny Banbridge county Down farmer died 11 February 1932 Probate Belfast 10 March to William John Martin and Robert Douglas farmers. Effects ?445 4s. 5d.

The above will is not on-line but should be held in paper form in PRONI.

Full Abstract :

Armstrong Jane of Legananny Leitrim Banbridge county Down spinster died 5 July 1932 Probate Belfast 14 November to William John Martin farmer. Effects ?106 17s. 9d.

The above will is not on-line but should be held in paper form in PRONI.

Full Abstract :

Armstrong John of Legananny county Down farmer died 14 January 1935 Probate Belfast 25 June to Adam Martin and William John Martin farmers. Effects ?95 15s. Unadministered Grant - Probate and Matrimonial Office - 23/2/93

The above probate file is not on-line but should be held in paper form in PRONI. (Died intestate, so no will).

Full Abstract :

Armstrong John of Legananny county Down farmer died 25 April 1941 Probate Belfast 11 August to John Alexander Martin farmer. Effects ?641.

The above will is not on-line but should be held in paper form in PRONI.

Full Abstract :

The Will of Robert Armstrong late of Legananny County Down Farmer who died 15 February 1889 at same place was proved at Belfast by William Armstrong and William Hannah both of Legananny Farmers and Edward Armstrong of Ballynahinch in said County Draper the Executors.

The above will is on-line and you can read it on the PRONI website. This would appear to relate to one of the people named in your post.

Full Abstract :

Administration of the Estate of Samuel Armstrong late of Legananny County Down Farmer who died 18 March 1922 granted at Belfast to John Armstrong Farmer Effects ?40 15s.

The above probate file is not on-line but should be held in paper form in PRONI. (Died intestate so no will).

Full Abstract :

Probate of the Will and one Codicil of William Armstrong late of Legananny County Down Farmer who died 21 March 1909 granted at Belfast to David Armstrong Superintendent of Markets George Radcliffe and John Armstrong Farmers

The above will is on-line and you can read it on the PRONI website. This would appear to relate to one of the people named in your post. There are also 5 probate files for Martin families of Legananny. 3 are on-line, one (1889) has been destroyed and one for 1932 should be in PRONI in paper form.

http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/will_calendars.htm

PRONI have  awill for Will of John Martin, Legananny, Co. Down. Proved 1901.             D1145/B/1

Here?s William Armstrong b c 1822 with his family in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Leitrim/Legananny_No__1/1200520/

There was another Armstrong farm next door, presumably relations:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Leitrim/Legananny_No__1/1200521/

Same farms in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Leitrim/Legananny…

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Leitrim/Legananny/204480/

This looks to be Susana Martin (nee Armstrong) in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Leitrim/Legananny_No__1/1200517/

Registration of births and deaths only started in 1864. Protestant marriages were registered from April 1845 onwards. Prior to that you need to rely on church records. PRONI have  a copy of the following Church of Ireland records for Drumgooland but they are not on-line:

C.I. Drumgooland (Dromore diocese) Baptisms, 1779-92 and 1833-72; marriages, 1779-91 and 1834-45; burials, 1839-41 and 1860-1959.

Griffiths Valuation for 1863 lists Robert Armstrong as renting 3 properties in Legaannny. These were plots 83 ? 85 which incorporated a farmhouse, outbuildings, a caretakers house and a total of about 28 acres of land. That farm today is on either side of the Legannany Hall Rd.

Esther Armstrong is also listed that year as having plot 107 which was a farmhouse, outbuildings and 21 acres.

There are numerous Martin properties in the townland too:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

The subsequent revaluation records show that plots 83 ? 85 remained in Robert?s name till 1891 when plot 84 only was let to John Armstrong (the other two remaining in Robert?s name). The caretaker?s house was demolished around 1868. By 1901 plots 83 ? 85 were jointly in John & James names. They also had plot 88. John also had plots 91 & 92. The property was still in the Armstrong family in 1929 when the records finish. (There are later records in PRONI up to the 1960s but these are not on-line). VAL3 series.

Plot 107 changed from Esther?s name to William?s in 1867. (Griffiths clerks were sometimes a year or two behind in catching up with deaths and other changes of tenants). By 1901 William had plots 107 &108. Plot 107 changed to John Armstrong in 1911. Plot 108 changed from William to John to Hugh and then to John. The farm was still in Armstrong hands in 1929 when the records finish.

http://applications.proni.gov.uk/dcal_proni_val12b/RelatedVolume.aspx?3…

The tithe applotment records for Co Down are not on-line but they are held in PRONI. You should be able to use them to see who had these lands in the 1820s/30s. It might also be worth searching both the Registry of Deeds records (again in PRONI) and PRONI's general database for leases etc relating to the two families. Eg: D1503/1/13            1754-1895            Leases relating to Legananny, Co. Down

 D1503/9/28Map of Legananny, Co. Down, giving names of tenants and acreages of land that each holds. The land is on either side of Castlewellan-Dromara Road. Coloured. Name of surveyor and scale not given.

D3025/E/1            c.1840

Description :             Reference Book of lands in Legananny, Co. Down. It records field numbers, names of tenants, and the area of the fields, and must refer to a map not accessioned with this archive.

Elwyn

Elwyn,

Thanks so much for the wealth of information, most of it I had bits of pieces of, or does not relate to my direct line.  I used the information you shared along with other census's and wills to branch the line downward and have actually found living relatives - not in Northern Ireland though.  Do you use familysearch?   If so My Great Great Great Grandfathers are John Armstrong  Id # LWF2-5KH and Robert Henry Martin ID # MZ6Y-NW2.  You can see all the sources I have for the familyies on familysearch.  The line goes down to William Armstrong and Mary Martin, then Robert Armstrong and Annie Thacker, this is my Great Grandfather who immigrated to New Zealand, then America.  

I know there are two Leganannys, my ancestors are from Leitrim, near Castelwellan, in fact my Geat Grandfather's sister married a Castelwellan Radcliffe.  The recording district is, or was Banbridge.  

I have used the Griffith Evaluation before, but have been unable to  understand how it helps, other than giving me information about who owned and who rented.  

Can you teach me how you you got additional information?  I still have not ustilzied what you sent, because I'm not sure how to use it.  It seems the information I have access to on line is more limited , or I don't know how to access relevant information.  I'd like to know more - Do you know where I can learn more about the use of the Griffith Evaluation and where I can learn to read land maps?

One thing I've wondered is if there were rent books available to view in Proni.  The ones I'd be interested in are Earl Annesley, which I've seen there are Eal Annesley papers at Proni.  

I cannot come to Ireland now, but if you could help me learn more, when and if I come, I will be prepared and know just what I need to look for.  I am also wondering if there are still Armstrongs and Martins in Legananny that I could get in contact with.  

Once again, thanks so much for your help!

You are probably aware that, save for a few fragments, all the Irish censuses prior to 1901 have been destroyed. The idea behind Griffiths is that, to a limited extent, it provides an alternative source of information for people in the middle 1800s.

Griffiths was a survey of all land and property conducted in the period 1847 ? 1864, for taxation purposes. The clerks worked their way from the south to the North, and the year that they conducted the survey for each individual townland is recorded on the records.

Only heads of household were listed, so you have no way of knowing whether a person lived on their own or had 20 others in the property.  Servants won?t show up, and some small agricultural labourers cabins were too poor to be recorded, and the big cities weren?t necessarily recorded either. So it?s not a comprehensive picture. But if your family were farmers, then they probably will be listed. Some properties were exempt, eg church and school land and so sometimes people resident there weren?t listed.

If someone is listed in Griffiths, then you can pinpoint exactly where the property was, how big it was, and look at other adjacent properties for likely relatives. It also enables you to find the property today, should you wish to do so.

The initial valuation (often referred to as the Primary Valuation) is on it?s own dedicated site which you are obviously familiar with. If you want to trace each property forward to see when there was a change of occupant, you can do that too, using the continuation of those records. The revaluation records show these changes. (The records for the 6 counties of Northern Ireland are on-line. Those for the Republic of Ireland are still in paper form only but can be accessed at the Valuation Office in Dublin). The revaluation records go to 1929, so you can trace any changes from the 1860s through to 1929 using this separate series.

The clerks revisited each property around every couple of years to see if there are been any improvements or deterioration, and if so they revalued accordingly. They also recorded change of occupants, change of immediate landlord, and also if the occupant purchases the property (normally recorded as ?in fee?). The dates aren?t always 100% accurate, and can be out be a year or tow. You sometimes see someone shown as occupant for a couple of years after you know they had died. If a tenant had just died, you will often see the occupant noted as ?reps of Mr X? so a useful clue of you are looking for a death. The revaluation records were kept in notebooks, and a new notebook was opened about every 10 years on average. So there are typically 5 or 6 books for each group of townlands, to cover the period 1860s ? 1929. If you see a woman?s name listed as head of household then it was often a widow, or less commonly, though obviously some single women were heads of household too. But where there was an adult man, he would normally be shown as the head.

Here?s the link to the revaluation records. They are a bit fiddly to work with. A little practice is required to get the hang of them.

http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm

Looking at the current phone book I can see that there is a Joe Martin at 18 Legananny Hall Rd, Castlewellan, BT31, and a WJ Martin in no 21. Very close by there?s an AE Armstrong in no 25. That road is in Legananny townland so I?d guess they may be descendants.

Thank you so much!  I was able to use the direction and resources you gave me to go back two generations, not on my direct line, but on my Great Grandfathers sisters line, she married a Martin, and that's where the connection is made.  I'm pretty certain these will also tie into my Martin line, I just don't know how yet.  It's a lot of work, as I've been using everything, Census, Griffiths Evaluation, and Valuation revisions.  I've also learned something about my family as property and funds were given to fatherless chldren and a housekeeper.  I've found the fatherless children were related, but would the housekeeper be a relative also?

Once again, Thank you!

Becky Hunter 

The housekeeper could be a relative, eg an unmarried niece or widowed sister brought in to help (and also to give her work and a small income) but equally it could be someone found by advertising in the normal way. I think it might all just depend on whether there was a suitable relative available to do the work.

Elwyn, 

So we know for certain that house 11 in the 1801 census is my family.  How do we find out what plot/s that farm is on the Griffith Evaluation?  There are too many possibilities to guess which lot belongs to my ancestors.

Hopefully you see my other post and have the historical information that will help me understand the culture of Legananny and surrounding areas.  

Thanks again for all your help!

Becky 

Becky,

To find the William Armstrong farm, you go first to the revaluation records for 1901. They are on-line, on the PRONI website under: VAL/12/B/16/15C (1895 - 1908).

http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm

You search through them till you find William Armstrong. He?s listed as having plots 107 & 108 in Legananny. That?s a farmhouse, outbuildings and a total of just over 30 acres of land. (That would be a reasonably prosperous farm for the time. Not huge but sufficient to support a family without too much trouble).

Then you go to the Griffiths Primary Valuation and bring up the map of Legananny, and look for plots 107 & 108. Then overlay the modern map. You?ll find that the farm today is up a dead end lane on the Kilnhill Rd, between the junctions with Legananny Hall Rd and Whitehill Rd. Looking at the farm on Googleearth, it?s easy enough to find. It looks to be derelict though. Possibly one of the barns is still in use. Hard to tell.  Presumably a neighbouring farmer has taken the land over, as the fields are all cultivated. You will either need to make local enquiries, if visiting, or contact the families I mentioned previously to see if they can help. (One of them may even own it).

I saw your other post last night and replied to it then. Only saw this post this morning. You were interested in how Co Down was affected by the famine. As far as your Armstrong family is concerned, if they had a 30 acre farm, and had the normal spread of crops that you would expect to find in Co Down, they would have been relatively OK. They would have had blighted potatoes but they would also have had other crops to rely on. They would have felt the financial impact of having no potatoes to eat or sell, but they wouldn't have starved. Indeed they may even have had some surplus crops, as perversely, according to a comment I saw in a Board of Guardians minute book for Antrim town, the summers of the late 1840s proved to be ones that led to bumper harvests of oats and other crops. And the prices shot through the roof because those who had money were desperate to buy them. So some farmers in this part of Ireland actually had surpluses when other people living near them had nothing and were starving. A complex issue.

According to the 1841 & 1851 census data, the population of Ireland as a whole dropped by 21% in that 10 year period. However for the 9 counties of Ulster the drop was only 15%, and for counties Down and Antrim, even less. Suffice to say there was still serious suffering in Co Down but much less so for a farmer with 30 acres of pretty good land. Your family were quite comfortably off by the standards of the time. The people who starved or were forced to emigrate were the huge numbers of labourers with little or no land and who had only planted potatoes on their tiny plots because you could grow more of that to an acre than any other crop. Also because potatoes require very low maintenance.

Elwyn

Hello again and thanks for your help!

I've posted a copied version of your original post and am wondering if you can tell me if there is a way to get these if I cannot come to Ireland.  Do they allow copies to be made, and if so, who migth I contact.  Also, do you have any idea what type of fee would be involved.  

Thanks!  

Full Abstract :

Armstrong James of Legananny Banbridge county Down farmer died 11 February 1932 Probate Belfast 10 March to William John Martin and Robert Douglas farmers. Effects £445 4s. 5d.

The above will is not on-line but should be held in paper form in PRONI.

Full Abstract :

Armstrong Jane of Legananny Leitrim Banbridge county Down spinster died 5 July 1932 Probate Belfast 14 November to William John Martin farmer. Effects £106 17s. 9d.

The above will is not on-line but should be held in paper form in PRONI.

Full Abstract :

Armstrong John of Legananny county Down farmer died 14 January 1935 Probate Belfast 25 June to Adam Martin and William John Martin farmers. Effects £95 15s. Unadministered Grant - Probate and Matrimonial Office - 23/2/93

The above probate file is not on-line but should be held in paper form in PRONI. (Died intestate, so no will).

Full Abstract :

Armstrong John of Legananny county Down farmer died 25 April 1941 Probate Belfast 11 August to John Alexander Martin farmer. Effects £641.

The above will is not on-line but should be held in paper form in PRONI.

Full Abstract :

Administration of the Estate of Samuel Armstrong late of Legananny County Down Farmer who died 18 March 1922 granted at Belfast to John Armstrong Farmer Effects £40 15s.

The above probate file is not on-line but should be held in paper form in PRONI. (Died intestate so no will).

PRONI have  awill for Will of John Martin, Legananny, Co. Down. Proved 1901.             D1145/B/1

Hi Becky

The (George) Radcliffe (1855-19280 from Castlewellan mentioned in your post who married your great grandfather's sister Mary Armstrong was a younger brother of my great grandfather Wilson Radcliffe (1851-1908). They were both born in the townland of Slievenisky, parish of Kilmegan, Co Down. He was also an executor of William Armstrong's will.

Mary Armstrong was George's second wife. They had two children, Mary Jane (1896-1984) and William Henry (1898-1968). I have a family tree covering these Radcliffes, called "The Castlewellan Radcliffes" on ancestry.com which is a public tree, so you can access it freely. If you have any problems contact me at cliff.radcliffe@ntlworld.com.

I have done quite a bit of research on the Annesley Estate papers developing this family tree:they are one of the most comprehensive sets of landed estate records available in PRONI and would almost certainly have useful information on the Legananny Armstrongs eg rental records, leases, maps for Legananny etc.

I'd be happy to help you in any way I can.

Cliff Radcliffe