Australian visiting Cavan (1st visit to Ireland!) in mid Jan 2020. Seeking Morrow, maybe Richards or Wiggins family ancestors

Hi Julie R:  

Thank you for your post to the Ireland Reaching Out message board.  We have several County Cavan volunteers and I have forwarded your post to them for their attention. 

They will be able to make recommendations and offer your guidance with your research.  If you have any further questions, please let me know at:  jhalloranryan@irelandxo.com

Have a wonderful Christmas and safe journey to Ireland!

All the best,

Jane

Hello Julie , my maternal grandfather was a Wiggins who came from Ireland originally ( not sure where exactly) and settled in Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland. I have a tree on Ancestry and My Heritage and I'm also on GedMatch. If you want to chat further just let me know . Have a wonderful visit to Ireland. Best festive wishes, Doreen Neilson 

Thank you Jane - that would be great!
And DN: I'll go to my library in the next week (hopefully before Xmas!) to access Ancestry.Eventually I'll probably join up to one of those sites when Il ready to put up a tree. (I did look at trees I could find relating to my great great grandfather Thomas Morrow Richards ( the son of Thomas Richard's who immigrated to Oz) but these didn't give me new Irish info & had some errors about the Aussies e.g suggesting one of the middle of 8 kids was born in Mexico!)
Julie

you don;t need to pay to check out the 1841 census.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?searchMoreVisible=&census_year=1841&surname=richards&firstname=&county19011911=&county1821=&county1831=&county1841=&county1851=&parish=&ward=&barony=&townland=&houseNumber=&ded=&age=&sex=&search=Search&ageInMonths=&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&yearsMarried=&birthplace=&nativeCountry=&language=&deafdumb=&causeOfDeath=&yearOfDeath=&familiesNumber=&malesNumber=&femalesNumber=&maleServNumber=&femaleServNumber=&estChurchNumber=&romanCatNumber=&presbNumber=&protNumber=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=

lots and lots of Morrows- but no Richards....

good luck

Hi Julie,  

I dont live near Killeshandra, but I will try and see what I can set out for you.  

Do you know which church your ancestors belonged to Church of Ireland, Methodist or Presbyterian?  I wonder what Concepta looked up..did she say?  Possibly RootsIreland??  The following information is taken from irishgenealogy.ie telling you what is offline, look at that site and it will also tell you what is online. You may be able to contact them before you come.

WHAT CHURCH RECORDS ARE AVAILABLE FOR RESEARCH OFFLINE?

1. The National Library of Ireland has microfilm copies of almost all pre-1880 Roman Catholic parish registers on the island of Ireland. Access is free and print-outs of the records are allowed. See www.nli.ie.
2. The LDS Family History Library has microfilm copies of c. 40% of Irish Roman Catholic parish registers, some copies of National Library of Ireland films, others filmed by the LDS themselves. See https://familysearch.org/catalog-search. These films can be ordered via the Family History Centers attached to most Mormon temples. 
3. Most local Roman Catholic parishes do not permit research on their original records. Callers will normally be referred to the heritage centres whose records are now almost all on www.rootsireland.ie. If necessary, contact details for local parishes can be found via www.catholicireland.net.  
4. The Representative Church Body Library is the official archive of record for Church of Ireland records that survived the burning of the Public Record Office in 1922. A full list of its holdings is at http://ireland.anglican.org. All are freely searchable if they are not too fragile to be handled.
5. The Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (www.proni.gov.uk) has freely available microfilm copies of almost all surviving records of all denominations for areas now in Northern Ireland, as well as a good number for areas in the border counties of Donegal, Cavan, Leitrim, Monaghan and Louth. A full list is at http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/online_indexes/church_of_ireland_index.htm.
6. Quaker records are very comprehensive back to the 17th century, with microfilm copies in NLI and PRONI. See www.quakers-in-ireland.ie.
7. Some Presbyterian records are only available locally or in the Presbytrerian Historical Society. See www.presbyterianhistoryireland.com.

Online do utilise all the records on https://genealogy.nationalarchives.ie, pay attention to the wills and the will calenders, again you should be able to order the wills before you come.  On their census page you will find all the census including 1841, while it is not evident on the side when you select census years, that year is there...for free.  

You will get Griffiths on http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/  Look at Using the Valuation and Maps and it will guide you, sometimes, putting in less in the search option is best to get results, you are looking for townland names...take note of them 

If Thomas was born circa 1828-1832, I wonder did his parents survive long enough to die within civil registration?  Look for their deaths on irishgenealogy.ie and look for others with the same surnames, it may broaden out your research and get you back that one generation.  Look also for death records through headstones look at https://historicgraves.com, billiongraves, findagrave, http://www.from-ireland.net/county-cavan-genealogy/,  

I found this site relating to Killeshandra and they have a 'contact us' button,  https://www.killeshandratourism.com/heritage-genealogy-killeshandra, I dont know how active this site is but it is worth a try.  Also write to linda@ anglocelt.ie it is the local paper, there is no guarantee they will print it, but give them your best story with contact details and any photos will attract attention and may get you the details you seek.  

You could take out a subscription with https://www.irishnewsarchive.com and look at the Co. Cavan papers, Anglo Celt, Freeman's Journal and even outside of that.  The names you are seeking are not the most common, so it should be easy enough to trawl through them, make sure you do not auto subscribe by cancelling the subscriptions to any paid sites.  They may have been involved in court actions, we were very litigious in years gone by.  

I hope I have given you some new avenues to look up.  

It is cold in Ireland in January, do bring the warm clothes, rain jackets and gum boots if you intend to trail around graveyards, the days are shorter, the library in Cavan town stays open late on Tuesdays and Thursdays.  

Regards and best wishes Carmel O'Callaghan

There are Morrow families living both in Milltown ( a village between Killeshandra and Belturbet) and also at Kilmore, which is between Cavan town and the village of Crossdoney.
Kilmore Cathedral has quite a long history and as far as I know the Kilmore family bury there.

Thanks so much Carmel . I've looked at some of those resources & advice on research but still felt like I was in a new city without a map. You've given me a much more structured overview to help me approach the resources.

I suspect William Richards family were Ch.of Ireland as Thomas Richard's married in the Church of England in Australia (as well as in the Catholic Church as his wife Mary from Tipperary was Catholic). Sixty yrs later in his long life in country Victoria, Australia, when he wrote a Will, a Presbyterian minister assisted but that doesnt mean he s t arted life in that form of Christianity. He clearly wasn't concerned about the ideological differences between denominations.
Julie

I'm absolutely thrilled to have just discovered a specific Townland address for an ancestor, William Richards, in 1821: house 3 in Killykeen (Kilmore, Cavan). http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1821/Cavan/Kilmore/Killykeen/3/

(I particularly wish to thank JNZ  but I don't know how to message him / her directly on Irelandxo for their assistance!).

Presumably, my great great great grandfather Wm (i.e. William) Richards, shoemaker, then aged 50 and married to 49 yo  Rachel Richards.  His son Thomas was not born for another several  years so perhaps Rachel died and he remarried to Elizabeth Morrow, Thomas's mother, or so he believed.  ??? 

It can't be a mere coincidence in names because the other house occupant is stated as Cathrine Wiggins, 22 and because the name Richards in these parts seemed to be rare. Unfortunately it doesn't state the nature of Cathrine's relationship to William and Rachel.

Now I have to find out about the location today - back then they resided at  Lady T.... .Cottage on a barony - the name of which I can't yet read.

House 3 is an interesting address.
More than likely one of a number of cottages built by Lord Farnham.
To this day there are a row of houses on the Killykeen side of Farnham estate called "The fourteen cottages"
Killykeen is now a forest park and amenity, lots of photos of it if you google it.

You're welcome Julie, Glad you found them- I only checked the 1841 and there werent any Richards there. Catherine Wiggins- maybe a married daughter- age would be OK to be a daughter of William and Rachel?

I remember how stoked I was many years ago when I found a CD of the 1841 index at my local LDS (online resources were non existant at the time) and found both my Lovett and Biggs and McCawley ancestors on there! Only thing missing are my great great grandmother Margaret Biggs parents (she is living with her McCawley grandparents). I havce subsequently managed to track them down using online resurces which have since disappeared behind a paywall :-(

My ancestors left ireland before civil registration - makes life much harder. 

Anyway, glad you have got a lead on them.

Cheers

Another lead for you Julie,

Check out the Roots ireland Cavan pages https://rootsireland.ie/cavan/search.php. Don't be put off by tge fact that Roots ireland states it is for Catholic resources. 

Many years ago (before they paywalled much of it) their search engine would give you many more details and I found baptisms for Elizabeth, Thomas, Abigail and Kesiah Biggs in the 1820's-30's and a death listed for a William  (their father) in 1834 although I still haven't paid to find out which parishes these were in. Now as Elizabeth, Abiagil and Kesiah are on the 1841 census living with big sister Margaret (my ggm) and their McCawley gps and there are only 11 entries for Biggs in Co Cavan I was somewhat confused - the family was protestant why are they listed as RC baptisms. An email to the Cavan geneaology site however, revealed that the original transcriptons were done by "students" (age unknown) and that Protestant registers had also been transcribed but had been mistakenly put down as RC.

I have found a few Richards eses listed there, quite a lot more Wiggins (including a Catherine but I think she may be much later) . The search is limited to +-5 years but with a bit of cunning you can work our way through to get a year. For example- there is one Biggs marriage. The +-5 years shows it is between 1830 and 1840. But it doesn't show up if I search using 1841- so it must be 1835. Using some knowledge acquired elsewhere gives me the likely name Mary Ann- and sure enough that is the one marriage, which is almost certainly my ggm elder sister - I'll need to pay for the entry to find out her husband though.

And- I have just found the "search text " function :-D - this is why I like helping other people as it makes me think and sort out my own research when I have given up . I won;t bore you with my Biggs any more who I just got a lot more info on by using this previously unfound function - but you can search for a surname and an occupation- unfortunately shoemaker and richards hasn;t shown up anything very useful for you :-(. But I think you might like the list you get if you put just Richards in the box....

Thanks JNZ. Yes I used that trick too a couple of weeks ago on the site when looking up Morrows. I'll do it again with C.Wiggins. It's marriage, birth & death certs that would be useful now to solve mysteries e.g. what happened to Rachel Richards & how did William then get together with Elizabeth Morrow? There was just one Elizabeth Morrow of the right age in the 1821 census, & she was in Cavan, so I'll follow up that address too.

Have you also considered that William and Rachel could have been Thomas' grandparents? there could be a son William who later married Elizabeth Morrow?

Anyway looking for your stuff have made me go outside the box on my own and now I have a parish of baptism (Ballymachugh) for the four youngest Biggs children and it is also where their father William was buried- whoop whoop!

My responses to yours:

Someone has written to me: There are Morrow families living both in Milltown ( a village between Killeshandra and Belturbet) and also at Kilmore:

Killykeen in Kilmore, is indeed where William Richards was living in 1821.  William Richards lived, according to this census record, in Lady Frunhams / Trunhams or is it Farnhams (>) Cottage - this is house no 3 (Not bad for a shoemaker, I thought!) I've attached the 1821 Census page.  It seems that the repeated hard to read word Frenham/ Franham must be Farnham.  I came across it googling and googling late into last night so thanks SO much to the person who confirmed that this is highly likely in writing the following to me last night (Australian time):

 More than likely one of a number of cottages built by Lord Farnham.To this day there are a row of houses on the Killykeen side of Farnham estate called "The fourteen cottages"Killykeen is now a forest park and amenity, lots of photos of it if you google it.

I will have to visit the cottages even if I can't afford to stay in one!  I will try to call them tonight my time.

To JNZ: Thanks again and yes, I have considered,amongst many possibilities, that there could be another generation in between - i.e. another William Richards shoemaker, but there's no sign of him yet.  It's possible that at age 58, the William Richards that we know about remarried to a younger Elizabeth Morrow (If born in 1793 - below she would have been maybe considerably  younger than him but in her mid 30s if she gave birth to Thomas Richards who came to Australia.

I'm fairly confident, with what I've already seen, that they are most likely to have been members of the Church of Ireland rather than Presbyterian. What I'd love are birth, marriage and death records. Will have to search after Xmas Day! 

Regarding Elizabeth Morrow, there is only one possible match in the 1821 Census. (see attached - didn't bother pasting original record as no extra info in there.)  She was the right age and in Cavan.  Her address in the 1821 Census was: House 3 in Bellis, Annagelliff, Cavan.

Quick question for someone in Cavan:

I'm wondering if someone would be able to tell me the current addresses of the 14 Farnham Cottages, given that  in 1821 Lady Farnham Cottage  - was house no 3 on the Farnham Estate and might be one of those cottages.  Maybe I could write to them. Or maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, and need to do more research first.

Yes, the only Frensham is in England. I'm delighted to say that I'm in Cavan now until Sunday morning & have met with Concepta & visited the Killykeen Forest etc.
My Richards ancestors lived in Kilmore in the 1820s, initially at a small cottage, one of three in Killykeen, called Lady Farnham's Cottage on the Farnham Estate. By 1857, 2 cottages were left of the three, & the Tilsons (not related to me at all) were tenants in one of these cottages. These cottages are no longer there. The existing 14 cottages ( which I saw yesterday) are a couple of kilometres away on another Townland.

It now seems that my ancestor Thomas had 2 brothers born after him in the late 1820s, William & then Hiram. No idea what happened to them. Their mother is shown on baptism records as Margeret Richards though Thomas Richards, in Australia, recorded his mother as "Bessie Morrow". Perhaps Margaret & Bessie Morrow were sisters from Drumcrow? Or perhaps she was Margaret but was known as Bessie,? Still hoping to connect more dots.

Very interesting, I've never heard of Frensham near Kilmore in Cavan.
I'm about 7 miles away, so I suppose it could be a small townland.
Never heard of a Lady Frensham either.
Lord Farnham's (family name Maxwell) would have been the largest landowners around in the 1800's.
As long as your not thinking about Frensham in Surrey in England, near the village of Farnham?

Yes, the only Frensham is in England. I'm delighted to say that I'm in Cavan now until Sunday morning & have met with Concepta & visited the Killykeen Forest etc.
My Richards ancestors lived in Kilmore in the 1820s, initially at a small cottage, one of three in Killykeen, called Lady Farnham's Cottage on the Farnham Estate. By 1857, 2 cottages were left of the three, & the Tilsons (not related to me at all) were tenants in one of these cottages. These cottages are no longer there. The existing 14 cottages ( which I saw yesterday) are a couple of kilometres away on another Townland.

It now seems that my ancestor Thomas had 2 brothers born after him in the late 1820s, William & then Hiram. No idea what happened to them. Their mother is shown on baptism records as Margeret Richards though Thomas Richards, in Australia, recorded his mother as "Bessie Morrow". Perhaps Margaret & Bessie Morrow were sisters from Drumcrow? Or perhaps she was Margaret but was known as Bessie,? Still hoping to connect more dots.

Have you met any members of the Morrow family living beside Kilmore Cathedral?
Unfortunately John passed away last year, but his wife and two sons live beside his home.
Their address is Ricehill, Crossdoney, but literally 400 metres from the Cathedral.

A few possible Hirams here to have a look at...

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?givenname=hiram&surname=richards&birth_year_from=1810&birth_year_to=1840&collection_id=1666142&collection_id=2221801&collection_id=2366620&collection_id=1762440&collection_id=1952868&collection_id=2451051&count=100&offset=0

Thank you. I'm actually going out to the Cathedral today. Sorry to hear about John but I'll try to drop in & if I'm lucky they might be there. If not, I'll leave a note. Julie

To Cavan locals reading Many people here have mentioned that they've never heard if Richards here. That I'm sure us true, & I think the numbers were fairly small. However, they were here at least until 1946. And I've found a couple of references to Richards birth & marriage records as far back as the 1750s.

Hi all. Thanks again for all your assistance & to N. for popping up to the Cathedral today to say hello.
(To JNZ: I'm pleased that you have found more info about your family.)
I'm leaving Cavan tomorrow after a wonderful 4 days both in town & in the gorgeous West Cavan countryside. It's so beautiful (in a peaceful rather than a dramatic way) that I wish I could eat it! Particularly wonderful being here because of all the delightful people I've spent time with, many of whom have helped me explore. It's also been incredibly moving to walk the earth here, especially as I'm probably the first ancestor of Thomas Richards to return here, after 170+ years.
Genealogically, I've come away with more questions than answers but, hey, that's life. I'll continue my research when I return home. I also hope to return to my Cavan "home" in future.

Good luck with your search, and glad you enjoyed your visit!

Hello Julie R .
we must be cousins as Thomas Richards buried in Euroa is my gg grandfather also. Through Thomas Morrow, his son Thomas Morragh and my father Lindsay Thomas. I came upon your post accidentally while searching Killashandra . We will be there in September briefly. I was so excited I nearly dropped my iPad . I was thrown off course with my research because THOMAS' immigration papers had his mothers name as Jane. I have never been able to find the Morrow name. These papers also said that he had a sister already in australia 100 miles in the country. No luck yet in finding her. 
According to my great aunt Nina Richards, Mary Malone his wife was also snubbed completely by her family when she married Thomas. She must have been very lonely . You have given me much new information and I add my thanks to the generous people on this forum. 
i think the name Lamb which was also added to THOMAS and Mary's children may be joined with the Wiggan name but maybe you can help there. 
not sure how to email you directly but I am sure this post would have been of interest to your 'helpers' 

genealogy is very addictive 

cheers Christine P

Hi Julie, so glad you had a peaceful time in Cavan.

Regards Carmel

Thanks so much again Carmel.
And Christine, wow! So pleased to hear from you.
I just wrote a long post here in reply to you but ..as the r e was no Internet connection it got deleted. I'm still overseas..home in Melb next week. Unfort I don't have time to write it all again now.

I'm pretty sure I met your Dad years ago.Did he have red-blonde colouring? In fact we probably met as kids a couple of times. We were close to Nina. Is he by any chance still alive? If his memory were still good, he'd know us.
I've got an idea as to how to get in contact without announcing our contact details publically here: email Cavan Genealogy. They know me. I'll tell them... We can exchange details. Must go. It's late here now.
Warm wishes cuz...but nit too warm if you're in Oz! Julie

PS Christine. I recommend phoning Cavan Genealogy (e.g. via Skype) ..then your accent etc will help confirm it's you too! I'll email Concepta too.

A couple of points.  My Morrow ancestors were from just outside Bailieborough in Cavan. Although there are different branches of the Morrow family, we have been able to work out which ones were ours by using DNA (are you on Ancestry.com?).  The other point is that one of my Cavan ancestors Thomas Stewart married Agnes Wiggins who would have been my great great grandmother.