Thomas Butler

Hi Rose . . . 

Welcome to Ireland Reaching Out  . . . and lets see if we can be of SOME help to you . . . 

Given . . what limited info. you have  I first searched ALL the usual  . . search engines . . i.e. Ancestry .  . Roots (paid) . . . etc

I was not getting back any worthwhile on a Thos.Butler . . being born 1863 . . somewhere in the mid-tipperary area (see map belw)

Holy Cross (as mentioned) is a few miles from the major town in that area  - Thurles.

I found it unusual not to come up with a Church record for Thomas . . . as all Parish records are on line . . . 

next I focused on . . his Mother . . wih a slightly unusual Irish name of   " Perkins " . . . 

again I found NO record of their (Michael + Mary) wedding . . circa 1860 +/- 10 yrs.

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When I searched for a Mary Perkins . . . being born approx. . . . 1840 +/- 5 yrs  . . . in Tipperary County 

I came up with 4 Mary's . . . arround that time  .  . . 

The first Mary (1839) . . . is being registered in Templemore . . Ch.of Ireland (Prod) . . daughter of a Soldier ( there had been a British army barracks in T'more)

The other Mary's . . are being registered in Upperchurch R.C. Church . . 1835 and 1843 . . .

and there is a further Mary ( in Upperchurch in 1849) . . . 

All there locations are within reasonable distance to a Holy Cross . . . 

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Next I searched . . " Griffiths Valuation " (1848 -1864 )   a Tax Roll from that era . . . for property owners . . with the name Michael Butler  . . 

1) Michael Butler . . . Tinvoher, Loughmoe West . . . near Templemore 

2)  Michael Butler . . . Dromardbeg . . near Templemore . . . 

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SO Rose . . . not sure if any of the above . . . is of any help to you . . . your THOMAS is elusive  !!

Cheers  . . E.M.H.

Thank you Eamon. I have visited Holy Cross and the surrounding areas at least six times and have yet to come up with anything. Thomas did often say that this family had a castle. Of course nothing so grand as Kilkenny castle but I did meet a lady in a coffee shop in Dingle last June while visiting my Kerry relatives and she came from Cahir and said it would have been that castle. I managed to get there before rushing back to Aus but didn’t have much time to do any digging.

I doubt that Thomas’ mother would have been C of I as the family were very RC. His children were Mary Ellen, William, James, Edmund and Thomas.

Thomas worked as a tin miner when he first arrived in Queensland but was a cabinet maker for most of his life here. He applied for the old aged pension, so my father told me, but had to send to Ireland for his birth certificate, which they did so I am guessing he must have been born after 1860 to have received it. I have even had St Anthony on his case!!! I guess he is not listening.

Cheers,

Rose

Hi again Rose . . . 

I am not sure I can compete with " St.Anthony " . . .  especially when ' clutching at straws ' . . .but . . here we go again 

You mention a " Castle " . . . which . . kind of surprised me . . . It's Americans who are usually looking for the relatives in the      " Castle " 

Australians . . by comparison . . . are usually looking for relitives as the   " Convict " . . . 

SO . . . as you mentioned a reference to Castles  . . . I am aware that Kilkenny and Cahir Castles were home to the Butlers . . . but their 

lineage would be extremely well documented . . . down to the finest detail . . . 

I had a look at the 1901 National Census . . . to see if . . there were still a BUTLER family in N.Tipperary . . with common Christian names 

i.e. Thomas // Michael  . . . (see below) . . . living in CASTLEfogarty . . Ballycahill.        Maybe St.Anthony is guiding me in this direction  !!

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So . . I had another look at the " Perkins " name . . . I would say it is an uncommon Irish name . . sounds. . .  Church of Ireland

but you say . .  mostly Rom.Catholic . . . but . . if Butler was R.C..   she would have had to convert (at that time to marry him)

I went back to another Tax roll surviving from 1823 -1837  (see below ) . . showing Perkins Families in Tipperary

these are the only Perkins in Tipperary . . at that time  . . . SO . . St.Anthony would tell me that it has to be one of these 4 property owners families . . . 

whereas . . this list tells us the district // townsland for location . . but nothing else . . . 

I'm not sure  . . where else . . to search for you . .  so have a in depth look at the above . . 

Cheers . . Eamonn.   ( where approx.are you in Oz. ?? )

Hi Eamon,

I certainly know what you mean about castles and convicts. We here would never have considered the possibility of there ever being a castle in the family but convicts yes. I have four of them so that  makes me Australian Royalty - we don’t need castles thanks but are very proud of our convicts.

The Butler plot seems to thincken so I will return to my brick wall and endeavour to digest the info you have so generously given. 

I am in Queensland. My family have a large property on the Darling Downs just out of Toowoomba, Australia’s best kept secret. 

Thanks again - hopefully St Anthony will point one of us in the right direction soon.

Cheers,

Roses

Hello Rose,

Have you ever seen the Birth Certificate for Thomas? Also where did he die in Queensland? Did he state on his marriage or death certificates the location of his birth OR the occupation of his father? Who did he marry and where? Did you ever find Thomas on a passenger list?

I have Butlers in my tree from Ballycahill and area. So I thought I may be able to join in your quest . My family is primarily Connolly of Ballypatrick/Bouladuff Thurles. They are married into Ryan, Butler, Mahers and so many more of the families families in this part of Tipperary.

I could also not find a Michael Butler/Mary Perkins marriage. Perhaps it was not her maiden name? As you have visited the area a number of times, did you consult the North Tipperary Heritage people?

Let me know , maybe we might find something new?

Regards

Erin Sullivan (Born N QLD, lived everywhere , back from UK and now in Perth)

Hello Erin,

Thank you for your interest in my Butler/ Perkins family. Thomas B remains a mystery. His Marriage andDeath Certificates all show the same - born Holycross Tipperary, parents Michael (a labourer) and Mary Butler née Perkins. Thomas died in Toowoomba 1952. He came to Qld 'under a cloud' as the family always said so I guess he was involved in the troubles in Ireland at the time. The shipping lists have dozens of Thomas Butlers from Ireland so it is difficult to pin point his arrival. Qld certificates do not ask how long they have been in the country prior to the marriage but the death certificate states 70 years in Qld. He lived those years here in Toowoomba but was married in Stanthorpe. There was another Butler family in Stanthorpe for many years but they were not connected at all.

would love to have you join the search - thank you.

Rose

I noticed that he has not named his first son Michael , which would have been traditional after his own father. This of course is a practice but not a rule. The childrens names are sometimes a useful clue. What are the detials of his marriage (wife, children etc. ) You don't have an online tree anywhere I guess? I guess that my question about the birth certificate means that nobody has had sight of it. How old was he when he died?  I will have another look but he may have not stated the absolute facts of his birth (for one reason or another). So the childrens and spouses names could be helpful.  I do not know if the pension ID is a historical rule. BUT if it was then perhaps reserach of QLD archives might be useful.

Let me know those names and I will  soldier on. You never know there may be a connection.

Erin

Yes Erin, I too have pondered over the names in the family.  There is not a Michael to be found anywhere so I was very surprised to see that Thomas had his father down a Michael. The names in his wife's family (Bridget Castle) are totally different although her parents kept to the Irish tradition of nameing children. His marriage certificate is very clear, as to his parents and of course information there was given by himself. No one has ever seen his birth/baptism certificate. Information on his death certificate was given by his eldest son William Butler, and is the same as the marriage details. His wife was Bridget Castle and children; William, Mary Ellen, Thomas, Edmund and James. I have seen in the Registers/Ireland in April 1863 for a Thomas born to a James Butler and Mary KENNEDY of Mucklin, Co TIpperary. 

Thomas was married in Aug 1886 age given as 23 which would date his birth as 1863. His death in August 1952 states that he was 95 years which makes his birth 1857 informant being eldest son. All of the children's birth certificates, given his age on each, shows his birth year as 1862, 63, 63, 61 and 1862. So we have his birth year stretching from 1857 to 1863. As he was able to obtain a birth certificate from Ireland to allow him to received the Age Pension he must have been born after registration in Ireland started.  Rose.