Patrick McIntyre

Jeanne,

There was no-one named Patrick McIntyre born in what is now Northern Ireland on 29th January 1880, or indeed on any date during 1880, in the statutory birth records.  The 3 nearest were 19.7.1879, mother’s maiden name McGowan, and 18th December 1882 mmn Sullivan. Both were registered in the city of Londonderry which is 90 miles from Belfast. Plus Patrick McIntire b 20.5.1881 mmn Nealon, registered in Irvinestown, Co Fermanagh. Again about 90 miles from Belfast.

In the 1800s people in Ireland didn’t normally celebrate birthdays and often didn’t know exactly when they were born. If officialdom later asked for a date of birth, it was common just to make one up. So it’s not at all surprising to find that there’s isn’t a birth matching, even approximately, the information you have. 

I searched 5 years either side ie 1875-1885. There were 32 children named McIntyre born in Belfast in that period. None named Patrick. Nearest was an un-named illegitimate male child born 14.7.1884 in the workhouse to mother Mary McIntyre. (No father’s name given).

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02683/1988315.pdf

Ideally what you need to do now is find Patrick’s marriage certificate or death certificate and get his parents names from that. Or if he was naturalised, parents names can appear in that paperwork as well. If you can find his parents names, then I can search again. 

Hello Elwyn, 

Thank you so much for your prompt assistance.

The family can from Fermanagh can be ruled out.  That Patrick Mcintire died in Philadelphia.  All other details are very close so other descendants, presumably distant cousins have intertwined the two making relying on published family trees impossible.

Is it possible on any of the remaining possiblities to determine which of them died in Ireland since my ancestor died in NY?  Also my great grandmother I believe lived in Drumcannon her entirety in Ireland because her mother died there and her father was born and died there.  So if there are any civil records that overlap with Drumcannon that would also narrow the field.

I am going to go back through the records I can find and possibly request copies of records that are only indexed.

Again, thanks for your help.

Jeanne

Jeanne,

According to trees on Ancestry both the other 2 Patricks I mentioned around 1880 died in Ireland, so that appears to rule them out.

You haven’t said where Drumcannon is located. I see two in Ireland. One in Co Donegal and the other in Co. Waterford at the other end of Ireland. I assume we can rule Waterford out? Here are the inhabitants of the Donegal one in the 1901 census. (There were just 9 houses there).  Are any of them your family?

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Gleneely/Drumcannon/

I can see from one tree on Ancestry that Patrick’s year of birth is given as 1880 and also as 1883. However his marriage and death locations are known, as are his naturalisation details. It shouldn’t be too difficult therefore to get his parents names. The father’s occupation might also be helpful. Without the parents names I have no real way of telling whether any other Patrick I might find is the right one. (Searching Patrick McIntyre, born anywhere in Ireland 1875 – 1885 gets 39 results. Plus some births were registered without forenames – as you saw with the illegitimate one - which adds to possible total. In those cases the parents names are essential).

Jeanne,

Further to my previous post, I can add a little information. Patrick’s naturalisation application is on the LDS site, so I have had a chance to look at it.  It doesn’t mention his parents names, so no help there. However it does give his place of birth as Fermanagh (not Belfast).  He was a musician and arrived in the US from Londonderry on 22.2.1900. Port of arrival was Portland and the ship was the California. He used the same date of birth as you have given ie 29.1.1880. His wife was from Co Leitrim. They had 3 children born in New York.

I have had another look at the Irish birth records, and would again confirm there is no birth registered anywhere in Ireland for a Patrick McIntyre with the date of birth given. The only one around the date your Patrick gave was the 20.5.1881 birth you have ruled out. I think you are probably right to rule him out as he was evidently still in Ireland in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Inishmacsaint/Moneendogue/1360314/

So we are back to needing your Patrick’s parents names to try and resolve this.

Knowing that Mary Ann was from Co. Leitrim has enabled me to find the correct Drumcanon (spelled with 1 n). This looks to be her family in 1901 & 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Leitrim/Carrigallen_West/Drumcanon/1476262/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Leitrim/Carrigallen_West/Drumcanon/658352/

Mary Ann’s parents were Patrick McGowan/McGovern & Alice Brady. They married in 1876:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…

Mary Ann was born in Drumcanon on 14.6.1880:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02871/2052115.pdf

HI Elqyn, 

Thank you again for all your work on this.  Someone assisted me navigating the New York CIty records and found this (which i had seen in the very beginning and stupidly neglected to save).  It has parents names and more specific dates so it should help narrow it down a lot!  To me it seems to lead back to Fermanagh unless there is another couple with exactly the same first names.

Name: Patrick Mcintyre

Gender: Male

Race: White

Marital status: Married

Age: 59

Birth Date: 29 Jan 1880

Birth Place:  Ireland

Years in US: 41

Death Date: 6 Feb 1939

Death Street Address: 338 East 52Nd Street

Death Place: New York City, Manhattan, New York, USA

Cause of Death: bronchopneumonia

Burial Date: 9 Feb 1939

Burial Place: Calvary Cemetery

Occupation: Musician

Father's Birth Place: Ireland

Mother's Birth Place: Ireland

Father: Patrick Mcintyre

Mother: Anna Mcintyre

Child: Alice Rooney

Informant: Alice Rooney

Informant Gender: Female

Informant Relationship: Daughter

Executor: Mrs Mary Mcintyre

Executor Relationship: Wife

Certificate Number: 1120

Does this provide enough new info to confirm one way or another? I would love to confirm county of birth, mother's maiden name and if there were any siblings.

Thanks again, 

Jeanne 

Jeanne,

I have had a look but I don’t see any marriage between a Patrick McIntyre and an Anna, anywhere in Ireland, in the timescale 1864 – 1883 in the statutory records, nor pre 1864 in the RC parish records, save for a Patrick M who married Ann Doherty in Derry on 5.10.1863. They had a son Patrick born 1.3.1868 in the city of Derry. However he seems too old and also born in the wrong county.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

In your previous post you wondered if Patrick jr might come from near Drumcanon, if that was close to Fermanagh. It’s not that close.  Drumcanon is near Carrigallen and you have to travel through Co. Cavan to get to Co. Fermanagh.  So a fair distance away.  (If Patrick came from Fermanagh, he certainly didn’t marry the girl next door).

I looked for likely Patrick & Anna McIntyre deaths in Fermanagh 1880 onwards up to 1921, but didn’t find any that might fit. 

I am afraid finding your Patrick has me beaten. I can’t find anyone born around 1880 who fits the information you have. Sorry. Perhaps someone else may have better luck.

Hi Elwyn, I was able to track down the relative in this thread, his parents, and a sister all in NY death records. It was the family from Fermanagh with Anna McManus as the matriarch.

Hopefully subsequent generations will not be so difficult but you may hear back from me.

Thanks again.

Jeanne

I searched births in Co Fermanagh 1864 – 1888 for children born to parents named McIntyre & McManus but did not find any. Nor could I find a marriage. I can see that someone has Rose Ann McIntyre in their tree, born to the same parents, in Fermanagh on 9th Feb 1883. (Information recorded on Rose Ann's death certificate). I can find no birth certificate in Ireland to match that information (or any date near it).

I saw on another tree that someone listed Rose Ann's birth in Edinburgh,  there is Patrick as well as siblings Joseph and Helen (all new research) and parents Patrick and Anna McManus.

Is it possible that the elder Patrick migrated to Scotland either with Anna or meeting her there and then they came to the US?  The death certs all say born in Ireland or more specifically Fermanagh but I do not know how much was verified at the time

I am on familysearch.org right now and a record referencing the birth of the younger Patrick Mcintyre in 1889 says Belfast which is Antrim County 

I am on familysearch.org right now and a record referencing the birth of the younger Patrick Mcintyre in 1889 says Belfast which is Antrim County 

I am on familysearch.org right now and a record referencing the birth of the younger Patrick Mcintyre in 1889 says Belfast which is Antrim County.

But here is the naturalization record.  They were married here in 1902

Information on a death certificate can be wrong. In Ireland in the 1800s no documentation was required. (None was available anyway in most cases). So the information was only as accurate as the informants knowledge. Ages etc were guessed all the time. You do sometimes see “unknown” written on certificates here but people clearly didn’t like to leave boxes blank and guessed when they probably should not. I expect that might have happened in the US then too. So wrong information on the death certificate is a possibility.

Being married and having children in Scotland would be perfectly feasible. Tens of thousands of folk from Fermanagh and adjacent counties went to Scotland to work, and it would explain why we can’t find any records in Ireland (though not why your Patrick said he was born in Fermanagh on his naturalisation application). I searched for a marriage for Patrick & Anna in Scotland but did not find one. McIntyre is a very common Scottish name and there are dozens of possible children so I cannot say for certain whether any of them may have been born there. I’d need to know where they were living to search for that.

I went through some of the trees on Ancestry again and found several that show some or all the children born in Scotland. At least one has a link to a 1901 Scottish census for Edinburgh. (Attached). The couple in that 1901 census were Patrick McIntyre & Mary Ann Marshall, both born in Edinburgh, and married there 3rd Aug. 1891. So not Anna McManus. All their children up to 1901 were born in Edinburgh.  One the face of it, that family’s origins appear to be entirely Scottish.

Rose Ann who went to America appears to have married Joseph James Eagan. Some of the trees have her mother as Anne McManus born Ireland and others as Mary Ann Marshall born Edinburgh. Clearly both can’t be correct. (There are a lot of inaccurate trees on Ancestry, to put it mildly, so this sort of conflicting and unreliable information is fairly common).

Your Patrick was an adult in America when he applied for naturalisation in 1915. He clearly cannot be the son of a couple who only married in 1891. That doesn’t rule out him being born in Edinburgh but I’d be surprised if he was. His naturalization application is quite clear that he was born in Fermanagh, and came to the US from Londonderry in Feb 1900.  Presumably the US censuses all have him as born in Ireland too?

You mention a reference on familysearch to Patrick being born in Belfast in 1889. I can’t actually find that reference myself but equally there’s no birth certificate that matches the information in the Irish statutory records. The only male McIntyre born in Belfast that year was a Thomas (who had other parents).

Patrick’s handwriting on the naturalization application is clear and confident. It suggests he was reasonably educated. So more likely to have his facts right you might think. He’s a bit of a mystery though.

Thank you. I know they had a daughter Rose Ann because there names are on her death information in NY. They were in NY in 1899 so any records in Scotland or Ireland would need to be prior to that.

Patrick is the youngest. Besides Rose Ann there was Helen and Joseph. I have even less I formation on the lives of Helen and Joseph. Helen appears to have never married because they used McIntyre as her name at her death.

I did notice that Patrick had very good hand writing as well.

I am have no earlier records on either of the parents.

The mystery continues. If I find anything else noteworthy I will add it to the thread.

Thanks again

I should drink my coffee before answering. Joseph was listed as born 1870, pPatrick 1880, Rose Ann as 1883 and Helen 1890

You say that the family were in NY in 1899, but Patrick’s naturalization application says he only arrived in the US on 22nd February 1900. Are you certain you have the correct family in 1899?

I had a look in the 1891 Scottish census to see if I could find a family with folk the ages you mention, but without success I am afraid.

HI Elwyn,  I was hopping on here to chasse down another branch of the family and wanted to update you.  I solved the mystery with the help of a fb Fermanagh genealogy group  There was a name change.  Family in Fermanagh was Mcteggart.  Anyone who moved to NY changed to Mcintyre.  I do not have absolute information as to why.  Hope all is well.  Jeanne

Jeanne,

Thanks for the update. A name change would certainly explain why we can’t find Patrick in Irish records. However, I looked briefly using the new surname and still don’t see a birth that fits, nor his parents marriage. But hopefully you have found something.